10-2 suited in the big blind in a raised pot...after the flop.

[Kevin]

I got feedback on the preflop play in a previous post. There was one close and 3 folds - so it looks like it was something that should have been in the muck. As a stated in a previous post, I saw something the other day giving the odds of a favorable hand with 2 suited/no straight potential and it motivated me to make a loose call.

So, in the feedback, please let me know what you think after the flop.

Questions:
1.) limp 3 bet on the flop with big multi-way pot, 4 flush bottom pair? or just call the raise? I know if this were a nut flush draw I would be jamming and there is a chance that I am behind to a bigger draw - but with the extra outs from the 2, it felt like the right thing to do - too aggressive?

2.) On the turn when the 3rd two comes, is this a good time for a check raise since it appears that I have been ramming a jamming a draw? (or will opponents pick this up?)


Thanks,
Kevin

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">CO caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

[Festus22]

Fold preflop.

The rest of the hand looks good to me.

[LockLow34]

Agree. Fold preflop. Don't get caught out of position with inferior cards. MAYBE in an extremely loose-passive game call on the button with this hand. (I wouldn't consider it myself since I wouldn't play non-connected suiteds.)

[mistrpug]

Post flop was perfect. I really like your 3-bet on the flop.


However, it's worth saying again that this should be folded preflop. It's not close.

[Bob T.]

Im not in agreement with the rest of them. In the big blind, I play any two suited in a raised pot, if it is going to be three handed or more, unless the raiser, or caller are very tight. This was likely to be 5 handed by the time it got to you, so I would have played in this spot.

I think I would have gone for a checkraise on the turn, because your opponent put in a cap, and would likely bet the turn, and you could trap the SB for two bets, one at a time by checkraising.

[Kevin]

Bob,

Thanks for the feedback. I was really getting a complex on the preflop play. As I stated in the previous post on the preflop play (without showing what the flop looked like), I cited this from a post that I saw the other day:

Suited Cards w/no straight potential
0.84% flop a flush
10.94% flop a four flush
2.02% flop 2 pair
1.45% flop trips or full house or 4 of a kind
15.25% flop a hand worth playing
5.56 to 1 against - play after 4 limpers

8 sbs in the pot to me with UTG likely to limp - it looks like I had an overlay to flop good.

So, lets say a hand with match stretch is worth playing
Suited Max Stretch 2-gap (KT-52)
0.84% flop a flush
0.65% flop a straight
10.94% flop a four flush
1.96% flop 8 out straight draw
2.02% flop 2 pair
1.45% flop trips or full house or 4 of a kind
17.86% to flop a hand worth playing
4.60 to 1 against - play after 3 limpers.

With the extra 1.96% to flop an 8 out straight draw and the extra .65% to flop a 4 straight, it is an additonal 2.61% - so it increases the "favorable hand" percentages on the flop from 5.56-1 to 4.6-1. I was getting 9-1 - so if I am not sure why the extra 2.61% makes a bunch of difference (am I not getting some fundamentals?).

What's more, the fact that it was a hand like 10 2 suited made it much easier to play. I think that the reason that I would play a hand like K4s vs 10 2s in this pot is because the king has top pair value. However, in a raised pot with a bunch of cold callers, the King seems to stand a good chance to be dominated. Whereas, the 10 2 is easy to get away from if one of the 15.25% of the hands worth playing didn't happen. I know another reason is that there is a chance of flush over flush, however, if I continually worry about that, I will never be able to play suited connectors like 78s for flush value because of the fear of flush over flush.

So, when it is 9-1 needing 5.56-1 to flop favorable (15.25% of the time) with a 38% passive table and a 27/12 raising in the cutoff, it seemed like an easy call and a very easy hand to release post flop if I flop in the other 84% of potential hands (including top or bottom pair less the flush draw)

[ QUOTE ]
However, it's worth saying again that this should be folded preflop. It's not close.


[/ QUOTE ] .

So, if it is not close, what I am playing in a 5 way pot out of the big blind laying 8 (and probably) 9-1? Only small pairs? or reraising with JJ-AA, AK, and calling big suited broadways? Suited Connectors have about 25% to flop favorable, suited 1 gappers have about 21% to flop favorable and suited 2 gappers have 17.86%. I would be fearful of a hand like AJo, KQo or KJo due to the fear of domination on the raise. I just reread my SSH page 72 about junk suited and unsuited hands. I also looked at his preflop chart for loose games on the button was 10/8s - 5/3s - and play the raised blinds the same as the button - so this was covered.

I just read that post the other day (that had the favorable flop% mentioned above) about 5.66-1 with the pot laying 9-1 and it seemed worth putting in a small bet - If that pot were laying 6-1 even at 5.66-1 it goes in the muck.

I posted the preflop play without flop results because I was hoping to have some conversation on what is played preflop out of the blinds in a 9-1 situation like that. I had 4 responses from very respected posters and got appreciated their feedback I assumed the preflop discussion was over and any additional conversation on preflop play would be in that post and then posted this for postflop purposes - for feedback on the limp/3 bet and whether or not to check raise the turn.

So with that said:
[ QUOTE ]
I think I would have gone for a checkraise on the turn, because your opponent put in a cap, and would likely bet the turn, and you could trap the SB for two bets, one at a time by checkraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

As soon as I hit the bet button, I was thinking I should have CR'd to the cap. Let him put me on a big draw and trap both of them. Visions of him checking behind danced in my head. If I am going to make the very marginal preflop call (ok, super fishy loose), then I cannot afford to miss any post flop bets when the hand actually comes in or it turns from potentially small +EV to big -EV in a hurry.

C/O had the preflop nuts and the SB had his younger twin brothers jack and jack. I immediately thought of Ray Zee's stages in the life of a poker player...welcome to stage 3. I have become the man that I used to hate - cracking aces because they were sooted. &lt;*)))))&gt;&lt; &lt;---- (self portrait)

Thanks again,
Kevin

[Jonny Melon]

Postflop looks good to me. Is there something specific you are concerned about?

Jon

[Kevin]

Thanks - the limp reraise when it looked like he was 3 betting a big pair - was it ok without a nut flush or 2nd nut flush draw?

Also (and I think Bob T. told me what I thought I did wrong), go for the CR on 4th since CO capped the flop.

Kevin

[IndieMatty]

Everytime I think I am a huge lag pre-flop, Bob T posts something that makes me feel better about myself.


Now, all I need is that post-flop play stuff.