Fish story: sherrif syndrome

[betgo]

Party Poker $10 SNG, round 1. I call a raise to 45 in late position with Ah2h. Flop comes QhQc6h. A bet of 30 and a call to me. I push. Get called by 74o. Win the hand with pair of queens ace kicker.

I don't know if this guy was drunk, didn't know how to play, or misclicked. What was he doing calling a preflop raise with 74o.

I assume this is sherrif syndrom. It was pretty unlikely I would make this move with a Q, so he would catch my bluff. Problem is he couldn't beat a bluff.

[tigerite]

What were you doing calling a raise with A2s?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
What were you doing calling a raise with A2s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am trying to make a flush or something. I am getting atleast 3-way action, deep money, and position. This is a $10 SNG. The play can get pretty loose, and I have a good chance of getting payed off well if I hit. Why would you consider folding A2s in this situation?

[ChrisV]

Well, because you're calling for 1/16th of your stack. If you make or call a pot size bet on the flop, you'll be in for a quarter of your stack. That isn't really my definition of deep money.

More to the point, most of the time you don't flop a flush or two pair. Instead you flop horrible stuff like QQx with a flush draw. You can then either sit there bleeding chips by calling, in which case when the flush hits it'll be blatantly obvious what you have, or you can use your kamikaze option of raising heaps and praying they don't turn out to be slowplaying a Q.

[tigerite]

- and because it's crap.

[AA suited]

whats the sherriff syndrome?

[The once and future king]

Are you taking the piss?

Why would anyone call a raise with A2s.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone call a raise with A2s.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of factors in my favor.

1. Size of raise. This raise is not too big. A miniraise would be even better.

2. Level. This is level 1.

3. Other callers. There is already another caller. It would be better if there were even more callers.

4. Buyin. This is $10. $5 would be even better. The other players may have just as bad hands. They may give a lot of action if I hit. I may be able to generally outplay them on later streets.

5. Position. I am in the CO. The button would be even better. There is less chance of a preflop reraise. I will have position to fire at the pot with a flush draw or know how much I am calling to see the next card. If an ace hits and it is checked to me, I may be able to pick up the pot with the best hand. Since I have a hand that will frequently completely miss, having position will help me steal the pot in some cases.

[zephyr]

Sorry, they're right here. Playing A2s for a raise is a big leak. You can either listen to a lot of experienced players or dismiss their advice.

I don't like your flop play either. You can call getting 6.5:1 from the pot. If you hit your flush you'll still get action if someone is holding a Q, and sometimes even if they're not. You're a big dog to a queen here which is a reasonable holding for either of your opponents.

I'd take one off, and use my positional advantage on the turn.

Only my opinion,

Zephyr

[betgo]

I also want to emphasize that I am calling with a speulative hand, as I would in this situation with a suited connector. I would never call in this situation with ATo or KQo.

[Killer Mike]

[ QUOTE ]
whats the sherriff syndrome?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sheriff syndrome is when someone feels the need to "police" the table and call down a lot of big bets so that an aggressive player doesn't think he can run over everyone. It's one of those macho things that (bad) poker players do... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Johnny69]

It is fine to limp in with a suited connector but don't call a raise with one.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I also want to emphasize that I am calling with a speulative hand, as I would in this situation with a suited connector. I would never call in this situation with ATo or KQo.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good start. Now follow it up with folding A2s.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
It is fine to limp in with a suited connector but don't call a raise with one.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the difference between limping at level 3 and calling at level 1? If you are playing a suited connector, you don't mind having an opponent with a strong starting hand.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the difference between limping at level 3 and calling at level 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is none. Don't limp them at level 3.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing a suited connector, you don't mind having an opponent with a strong starting hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

A2s is not a suited connector.

[tigerite]

I'd go as far as saying - don't limp them at level 2, either. Unless it's KQs.

[Phoenix1010]

I was actually at this table and went on to play Betgo heads up. To respond to the original question, I thought the guy was just another maniac party poker player who came to get lucky. There are quite a few of them out there, and they're the ones who upset us so much when they runner runner the winning hand. Usually though, they just donate their chips to someone who knows what they're doing. That said, when the hands were flipped up, I was most surprised to see what Betgo was holding. A2s may be a good hand to play in the CO for a limp when 5 players have limped behind you, but there were only two people in the hand, including an EP raiser. The all-in raise on the flop was the strangest part I thought. It was the first hand of the tourney and there was only about 250 in the pot. I can't see any reason to throw all of your chips into a small pot with a flush draw on the first hand of the tourney, especially on a paired board. I'm not saying you should be really afraid of 66 or Q6, but, personally, when I'm drawing, I like to be drawing to the nuts. I thought that play was pretty poor in general. To his credit, Betgo played solid poker throughout the rest of the tourney, up until I outdrew him heads up
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ChrisV]

Is your play on this flop an example of you outplaying them?

Basically you're praying they don't have a hand that can call - if they have something like AQ you're worse than a 70/30 dog and versus a pocket pair, say 99, you're a 60/40 dog. And this was a flop where you actually hit something.

Like I said, this is typical of the kind of situations you get into with these hands - you have a choice between meekly calling and praying you hit (whereupon when you raise, they fold), or raising big and praying they fold. Compare this to a small pair where (1) when you hit a flop, you immediately have a made hand and (2) it's a LOT harder for them to see the hand coming.

[betgo]

I really don't see how you can criticize the push. I have 750 chips. There are 200 in the pot. If I get called a Q, I have a 25-28% chance to win a 1700 chip pot. 25% of 1700 is 425, so on average I lose 320 chips. If I get called by a pair, I have a 40-45% chance to win the pot, so my expectation is about even. If I get called by 66, I have a 1% chance to win the pot, so on average I lose 730 chips, but this is pretty unlikely. If I pick up the blinds, I gain 200 chips. I think this gains chips on average. If it loises chips, it doesn't lose many.

I think it is much more likely I will pick up the blinds than be called by a Q or 66. The dangerous board gives the semibluff some force. It would be hard for a reasonable player to call with a 6 or a small pocket pair. Although there is a good chance I am on a flush draw, it is too dangerous to call, since I could have a Q or a fairly large pocket pair. Since pushing with a flush draw here looks dangerous it is more effective, since opponents are not going to put me on a flush draw. Of course anyone with a Q us going to call.

I did win a lot of chips on this hand by outplaying my opponents. Not that I played brillaintly, but that my opponent played badly. I made reasonable plays, although ones that could be criticized. My opponent called with 74o. He had a 15% chance of winning the pot. He basically handed me his chips.

[ChrisV]

You can demonstrate that pushing is OK on average. I don't think it's too horrible, but that's largely a function of the pot size. Let's assume that pushing is slightly +EV. It's possible that I could demonstrate that calling the flop is equally, or even more +EV, in which case pushing is the wrong play.

Anyway that's a bit of a tangent, you've ably demonstrated my point, which is that you think the right play in the circumstances may be to push allin on a paired flop with nothing but a draw. If your strategy is to commit your stack whenever you flop anything its difficult to see how you intend to outplay your opponents. The fact is that the pot on the flop is a quarter of your stack, and SNG stacks are too shallow to allow much manouevering on the flop.

[betgo]

As I said, I am not doing anything sophisticated to outplay my opponents early in a $10 SNG. Mostly, I am just not making basic mistakes they are making like calling bets when they don't have anything.

I was not paying a high price to call with the flush draw and clearly continuing to do that would be EV+. Part the reason I pushed was that I had a read or feeling that neither of them had a Q.

[betgo]

I have Ah2h, the board is Qh6hQc. There is a bet of 30 and a call into a 160 chip pot. If someone has a Q, wouldn't they bet something significant with the 2-flush on the board. That is part of why I pushed. I didn't think anyone had a Q.

Besides, as I mentioned, the pot I was trying to pick up was significant, and I had some chance even against trips.

[goldseraph]

I find this a poor play. 200 is not that significant of a pot to put all your chips in. I wouldn't even call the pre flop raise. If you flop an ace but not the flush draw, then what to do you do? Post flop was not the worst play, if nobody has a queen you almost certainly will take the pot. If someone calls, you have some outs. I personally would have just raised 350 or so, or checked. I don't like putting all my chips so easily, it can bite you in the ass more than you'd like.

[ghostface]

You cant call a 1/16th stack raise with such a crap hand! Aleo Magus said in a post that you are 30:1 to make a flush. The money is never deep enough to warrant a call here in level one.

Also you are saying that 25% of the time you win a 1700 chip pot against a Q. This hand not included since you were called by an idiot, if you are called by any Q, 6, pair, or better ace you will be out of the tourney about 60% of the time. Why do that on such a marginal hand. There are so many hands that this can be done with in a much better fashion.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally would have just raised 350 or so, or checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very standard to push with a semibluff with a draw and overcards. You don't want to be forced off the hand on the turn. Talking about committing half your chips shows you don't know what you are talking about.

Since I only have one overcard and the board is paired, I do not have as strong winning chances as with a lot of draws. However, there are advantages as it is unlikely someone has a queen from the betting and because there are two of them on the board. It will also be hard for someone without trips or a boat to call. Also, my opponents probably won't put me on a flush draw.

The semibluff with flush draw and ace is a pretty strong play. I am only in bad shape here if I get called by trips or a boat.

[YourFoxyGrandma]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, I am not doing anything sophisticated to outplay my opponents early in a $10 SNG. Mostly, I am just not making basic mistakes they are making like calling bets when they don't have anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like when you called a raise without anything?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Or like playing A2 level 1?

[/ QUOTE ]
A2s, probably with the button.

[adanthar]

You're still defending this horrible play a week and over 25 posts later? You've now been told how bad it was by eight or ten separate people. Just admit your screwup and move on.

Or, you could ignore that and call raises with Axs for the rest of your poker career, which is fine because the 2+2 tourney probably needs the overlay.

[ghostface]

If you had lost this hand would you defend it so much?

No. You woulndt even have posted it.

[ilya]

I would just like to add to the chorus of voices urging you to fold A2s to a raise preflop. I think it's much more justifiable in a $10 then at higher levels, but I still think it's too much to pay for too speculative a hand.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
You're still defending this horrible play a week and over 25 posts later? You've now been told how bad it was by eight or ten separate people. Just admit your screwup and move on.

Or, you could ignore that and call raises with Axs for the rest of your poker career, which is fine because the 2+2 tourney probably needs the overlay.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you had a good point, you wouldn't have to be nasty. I make my living playing poker, so I value my own opinion over that of 10 people who may or may not know what they are talking about. I am willing to listen to arguments, but not numbers. Also, if Fossilman or some other respected poster says I am wrong I will give that more credence.

I brought this up again because I realized why I thought no one had a queen and I could push. My main intention was not to defend calling with A2s.

If either the initial call or the push were bad plays, I can't see how either play loses very many chips on average.

The nature of no limit poker is that playing a marginal hand can often be a good play. In this case, I invested 45 chips and won 1700.

I see people calling much bigger raises with all sorts of dominated hands in first levels of SNGs. I don't see how getting position with a speculative hand can be that bad.

I didn't post the hand to discuss my play, and I am suprised it has proved to be so controversial.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
If you had a good point, you wouldn't have to be nasty. I make my living playing poker, so I value my own opinion over that of 10 people who may or may not know what they are talking about. I am willing to listen to arguments, but not numbers. Also, if Fossilman or some other respected poster says I am wrong I will give that more credence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play part time (only because I want an alternative career in case online poker dies) and I would bet a large amount of money that I have earnt more from the game this year than you have.

[ QUOTE ]
If either the initial call or the push were bad plays, I can't see how either play loses very many chips on average.

The nature of no limit poker is that playing a marginal hand can often be a good play. In this case, I invested 45 chips and won 1700.

I see people calling much bigger raises with all sorts of dominated hands in first levels of SNGs. I don't see how getting position with a speculative hand can be that bad.



[/ QUOTE ]

What happened in this hand is a very rare occurrence and shouldn't be included in a judgement of the play. The result here could equally be used to justify playing T5 offsuit the same way.

You're probably right that the A2s doesn't lose many chips on average. Money isn't won by gains and losses of chip equity, however. If you win 200 chips in 4 tourneys and then bust out of the 5th, your overall expectation will be negative. Doubling your stack doesn't double your equity, either.

Calling with the A2s isn't that bad. The reason people jumped on it is it's an obvious and easily avoided mistake.

SNGs are a different beast to both NL cash games and MTTs and it's a mistake to carry concepts across from the latter. SNGs are more about preserving your stack than either cash games (where you just always make the chip equity play) or MTTs (where you must make speculative plays in order to gather enough chips to have a shot at making the money).

[ghostface]

The push was wayy better than the call, but still questionable. If you would like to play questionable poker then go ahead. The way your reference Fossilman, etc. its seems you are trying to make you push on the flop sound like a play that a world class player would make. Even the best will tell you that theres no point against trying to outplay bad players. You found that out when the guy flipped 74o.

[betgo]

I think I may have simplified the hand for presentation. I think the third position player actually limped, the fourth position player miniraised on top of that and the third position player (the one who called the push with 74o) miniraised to 45. So I was initially calling 30. I thought I had a good chance of the button, which seems to me is worth something in multiway action by itself. Furthermore, I expected atleast the big blind would call the miniraise, so I was expecting maybe 4 or 5 way action. 3 way action to the flop was unusually tight at this stage.

In the first round of SNGs at this level and frequently a lot higher there is all sorts of wild play. I usually sit there folding hand after hand, and rarely flat calling a raise. If I can get multiway action with a speculative hand for a reasonable proce I will take it, because there is a good chance I will be paid off well if I hit.

I am confused because I see so many people calling big raises early in these SNGs. They can't all have big hands. Probably, a lot of these people who think calling with A2s is so bad would call with KJo or some other trouble hand.

I would never call a raise in a MTT with A2s in a normal situation. However, with reasonably deep money I might be a 2nd or 3rd caller. The situation has to be right. Normally, don't call a raise with A2s, but I don't agree it is always an error.

I did not reference Raymer to imply that world class players would have made that push. I just meant that I am not going to agree I am wrong because 10 people say I am. I submitted a hand to Daniel Negreanu's forum on Poker School where I had busted out of the final table of a $150 MTT. Everyone commented on how terribly I played. Then Negreanu said that he loved the 1/2 pot bet everyone criticized and that I played the hand perfectly.

However, I think a lot top players would push in that situation. A 200 chip pot with an 800 chip stack is often worth making a play for, and the risk is not as great as it seems here.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
I am confused because I see so many people calling big raises early in these SNGs. They can't all have big hands. Probably, a lot of these people who think calling with A2s is so bad would call with KJo or some other trouble hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good lord, no. A2s is a much better call. However most of the people here play very tight at the start of a SNG. The worst non-pair hand you'll see a lot of people here (including me) calling with is AQo.

I agree that the push on the flop is OK. The problem is getting yourself into a situation where pushing on a semibluff is an OK play, in the first place. In a SNG, gaining chips in the early rounds is not as important as not busting out. Because of this you want to avoid getting involved. Go have a look at the Independent Chip Model (http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/ICM.html) and see what happens to your equity when you double up early.

The problem with A2s is that it's a hand that often leads to the kind of semibluff situation you found yourself in, which ultimately is damaging to your equity.

[ghostface]

betgo,

sorry for the criticism so much earlier. obviously this hand is not a play that you make often. given the right circumstances (these are about the only ones), playing this hand can be very profitable. But of course the reason we all try to avoid flush draws early on is because the money is too shallow to allow it and even if you flop a flush draw, someone bets and it gets to you when its heads up, unless the bet is small you are not going to have the odds to chase. If you chase thats just unnecessary chip bleeding. I'm sure you know all this and I guess you just wanted to throw this hand out here to see if anyone appreciated the play.

Well done. I'm glad no one had a Q or 6 and that no 7 or 4 busted you.

[betgo]

I am glad someone finally said something nice about my play here. Of course, I didn't advocate calling raises with A2s as a general policy. I just think it is a good move in some situations like this one.

Cloutier and McEvoy's "Tournament Practice Hands" says you can limp in with other limpers with Axs or call a raise once someone else has called. Obviously, you need reasonably deep money to make these plays. Their books have a reputation for being weak/tight. They don't say that much nice about Axs, but the only hand they seem to like is AA.

I think I played that hand well and adapted my play to the situation. I don't think the best play is to always play by the book.

As far as not playing draws, that goes to a certain extent for late MTT or SNG play when the pots are mostly 2-handed. Early on, particularly at low buyin, when you may have 4 players to the turn, I love draws. Not only do you get multiway action, but you are likely to win more bets after you hit.

[tigerite]

Just seen Gigabet play Ah2h from UTG 10-handed, in a steps level 5.. why I do not know. It cost him 100 chips too, as the turn gave him flush + straight draw and he missed on the river.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I may have simplified the hand for presentation. I think the third position player actually limped, the fourth position player miniraised on top of that and the third position player (the one who called the push with 74o) miniraised to 45. So I was initially calling 30. I thought I had a good chance of the button, which seems to me is worth something in multiway action by itself. Furthermore, I expected atleast the big blind would call the miniraise, so I was expecting maybe 4 or 5 way action. 3 way action to the flop was unusually tight at this stage.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you called *two* separate raises with it? This gets better and better. (The minreraise is usually a prime sign of an idiot. That idiot also usually holds something like two Broadway, or, more likely, A5o, giving you three outs. At the very least, you're on notice that your ace is no good.)

[ QUOTE ]
In the first round of SNGs at this level and frequently a lot higher there is all sorts of wild play. I usually sit there folding hand after hand, and rarely flat calling a raise. If I can get multiway action with a speculative hand for a reasonable proce I will take it, because there is a good chance I will be paid off well if I hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine and I'll often coldcall these types of raises with any pair, JTs, etc. (though I start with 1K so I have a little more leeway.) I don't get how A2s is a hand you get paid off on if you hit. Hit what, exactly? A flush *draw* you have to chase, emphasis on draw, that comes in 5% of the time you play the hand? Your ace, no kicker? The 1 in 30 chance at 2 pair or trips?

[ QUOTE ]
I am confused because I see so many people calling big raises early in these SNGs. They can't all have big hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a bunch of lemmings run off a cliff...

[ QUOTE ]
Probably, a lot of these people who think calling with A2s is so bad would call with KJo or some other trouble hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

98% of this forum toss everything below AQ in this spot and a bunch of them fold AQ, too. If anything, the advocated playstyle here to a raise is overly tight. Overly tight means 'folding AQ' or 'folding 55', not 'folding a hand with one live card in it and maybe a flush draw'.

[ QUOTE ]
I would never call a raise in a MTT with A2s in a normal situation. However, with reasonably deep money I might be a 2nd or 3rd caller. The situation has to be right. Normally, don't call a raise with A2s, but I don't agree it is always an error.

[/ QUOTE ]

You called 7% of your stack with it. In a previous post, you implied that you limp suited connectors in level 3, which means you call off another 50 on a regular basis when, most of the time (especially with loosish PF play earlier) that's gonna be closer to 10%.

Forget the push (which I don't really hate). You're asking whether the kitchen faucet is leaking when your whole basement is flooded by a broken water main.

[tigerite]

Adanthar is spot on. Listen to him. Although personally, I think I'd call 55 here to a min re-raised re-raise because the odds for the set would probably be there. Hmmm AQ I'd have to think about.

I limp suited connectors in late position at level 1. That's it.. after that you can forget it unless it's KQs.