Tourney Question

2nd hand of last weekend PokerStars NL toruney for the seat in the big one at the WSOP. All players are within 50 of the starting chip total of T1500. Blinds 10/20, UTG raises to 140, all fold to LP player who raises to (I think) 300, only UTG calls. Flop comes 9-10-J rainbow. UTG goes all in...and LP player calls. UTG turns over 10-10 for middle set, and LP has QQ for an overpair and open ended straight draw. If you have any experience at all with PokerStars tourneys, you know that the story doesn't end pretty for the leader on the flop... K on the turn and UTG (who by the way, knocked me out of one of the weekly $100 NL tourneys in 4th a while back and went on to win about $3K).


I guess my question is, how would you have played this hand differently? If I have QQ in LP after my initial reraise and he goes all in like that (Tourney just started, so assume I have no read on this player), I can't see how I can commit my whole stack this early in the tournament, when I may only be a slight favorite or way behind...


Maybe he took into consideration that this was a freeroll and that a good percentage of these players weren't good players at all, and would go all in on a whim (as evidenced by the fact that about 100 players were quickly knocked out). Either way, he survived but busted out well short of the final table anyway.


Just wanted to see if the consensus would be to fold to the all-in bet on the flop, or maybe how you would have played the hand differently if you were UTG.

It's not clear whose play you want us to comment on but I'm going to try both.


UTG I would just call with TT in the early stages first to act. Mainly because I want to avoid the kind of situation which actually arises here, with too many of my chips in the pot with a weak hand out of position. If you do raise, 60-80 is fine, 140 is unnecessarily high. In this particular hand, when UTG gets "mini-raised" to 300 a call is OK for 160 more to try to flop a set.


Which he does, hooray ! But on a very dangerous flop. However, with the reraise it is hard to see the reraiser having a straight. JJ is possible but if he has JJ it's just oh dear how sad never mind - he gets the chips. Given that there is 600 in the pot, 1200 each in our stacks, and a turn of 7, 8, Q or K is going to leave me out of position and guessing, I think I go all-in too.


As for LP you know what I think of these minumum raises. What is the ****ing point ? Call 140, take a flop, see what UTG does and then make a decision. Here, facing an all-in there is now 1800 in the pot 1200 to call. V-e-r-y tricky. Could call or pass.


In general, your point about wanting to go all in because there are so many bad players doesn't make sense. Quite the reverse. Against poor opposition, try to avoid a shootout when you don't know where you stand. Don't give them a chance to get lucky. You can see that I favour keeping the pot small until I feel I have a good situation.


This kind of hand demonstrates the inherent difficulty in the pokerstars NL tournaments. There's nothing wrong with the structure or IMO the cards being dealt, it's just that you are faced with a large number of unpredictable players who like to bet a lot of chips and even go all in frequently. This cuts down the good player's edge considerably. Plus you have no tells and it's difficult (though not impossible thanks to the Notes) to get a line on your opponents. That's why a good player may find it more difficult to win on-line than live, even though the players are worse.


I don't mind though, they're fun and you still have an edge. There is little doubt in my mind that the pot-limit tournaments are easier to win even when you take into account the smaller fields. Just wish they would spread a few more, and for more than $10 !


Andy.

I usually choose the "preview" option before I post messages and give them a sanity check...making sure the question I am asking or the point that I am trying to make is clear. (As well as a spelling check)...I didn't do this in this case.


I basically wanted to get a viewpoint on how both hands were played. (which you provided)...


As far as my "all-in" theory goes, of course you are right... While a lot of players *are* undisciplined or unskilled, in a case like this where you could rule out Q-K (based on the reraise) against a normal player, you can't necessarily do that in these tourneys (especially in the early stages). What I should have realized was that a lot of the first 100 or so players that were quickly eliminated were some of the better players in the field who called or raised all-in against a player who shouldn't have been there. (like A-K, betting or raising at every opportunity on a board of A-K-6-9-2, only to be beaten by pocket 2's).


That's the worst part about playing the low buy-in (or even free) tourneys there...there's no such thing as a brick on the river...what looks like a harmless 2 makes someone two pair (K's and 2's against your AK).


One final note...I am not a conspiracy theorist and didn't want to infer that I thought there was anything suspicious about the card distribution...I have just been on the losing end a few too many times when they have turned both cards over and I was ahead after the flop /images/smile.gif I'm sure most people have had similar experiences and don't care to hear more about mine!!!

Andy,


The only hand I'd want to get my whole stack in there with would be aces, in the early stages, and I agree with your advice. Sklansky's new book

does, in my opinion, an excellent job of explaining the concepts you outline- just one more illustration of how important it is to get a line on your opponents.


Minimum raises- horrors!! I'll raise, if first to act, three to four times the size of the big blind, whether it's aces or 10-9 suited, or even a stone bluff,(except when the normal raise

would put half, or more, of my chips- then I move in) so that others can't read me.


perfidious

I don't think that a fold is automatic here. If he has a big pair, you are of course behind (you still get almost break-even odds, except when he has kings), but this is by no means certain. Since he didn't reraise, he probably doesn't have AA or KK. His most likely holdings are still TT or JJ (and maybe 99), but his play would also make sense as a (risky) semi-bluff with 88, AK or AQ, and a very loose player might also have AJ or even AT (esp. when suited).


Even if those cases aren't very likely, if you think he holds one of those more than 1/4 of the time, you are a favorite to win the hand and have an easy call. Since we're talking about an online freeroll tourney here, the above assumption doesn't seem too far fetched.


cu


Ignatius