Is this where you fold AA PF?

[Scuba Chuck]

I've always wondered what are the situations that you should consider a PF fold with Pocket AA.

So, is this one?

NL Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:7683435 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Sunday, December 05, 21:01:04 EDT 2004
Table Table 11698 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 8: Qpopular ( $1135 )
Seat 7: DaveRaptor ( $290 )
Seat 5: Scuba_Chuck ( $4290 )
Seat 2: tooyoung220 ( $1100 )
Seat 3: hans72 ( $1185 )
Trny:7683435 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Ad Ah ]
hans72 folds.
Scuba_Chuck raises [200].
DaveRaptor is all-In.
Qpopular is all-In.
tooyoung220 is all-In.
Scuba_Chuck: wow
Scuba_Chuck calls [935].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, Ac, 8d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
Scuba_Chuck shows [ Ad, Ah ] three of a kind, aces.
DaveRaptor shows [ 7d, Ts ] a pair of tens.
Qpopular shows [ Kc, Js ] a straight, ten to ace.
tooyoung220 shows [ Kh, As ] a straight, ten to ace.
DaveRaptor finished in fifth place.
Qpopular wins 70 chips from side pot #2 with a straight, ten to ace.
tooyoung220 wins 1215 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, ten to ace.
Qpopular wins 1215 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, ten to ace.
tooyoung220 wins 580 chips from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
Qpopular wins 580 chips from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
DaveRaptor has left the table.

[Ezcheeze]

NO! you are chip leader and can't possible lose there is no reason for you to pass up this hugely +EV play.

[pshreck]

... yet another post where I can't tell if it's a joke or not.

[jaydoggie]

whats more of a joke pshreck, moving in on 94o or folding AA?

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
whats more of a joke pshreck, moving in on 94o or folding AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is more of a joke. Your move was a close second.

[Gramps]

Go to www.twodimes.net (http://www.twodimes.net) and plug some hand combinations into the Poker Odds Calculator. Even against 3 other hands in an all-in situation, you're going to be at least 50% to win the hand and quadruple up(assuming another player doesn't have Aces as well). A decent portion of the time you'll be more like 65% (if you're up against something like AKo and two underpairs).

Once in a while, there will be another AA, but that's still not the worst spot in the world (you'll both probably be at least 60% to double up each).

So...even though you'll be eliminated a decent % of the time here, the reward of quardrupling up more times than not would certainly seem to make that risk worth taking. Maybe you can ICM your expected payout to see just how much equity you gain the times you quadruple up there to have a clearer picture.

I would imagine that absent some HUGE skill advanatage, there aren't many spots where you should fold Aces preflop on the first hand/early in a tourney. I'd say "decision time" is if there's 5 players all-in already (but that's just my guess, no calculations run to back it up).

Let's say the first hand you limp UTG, everyone folds to BB, he bets the flop and you fold. 2nd hand of tourney you're BB, everyone is all-in when it gets to you (the shortest stack of the tourney) and you have AA. With the 50/30/20 payout absent some tie you're pretty much guaranteed 30% of the prize pool by folding (versus winning first and it's 50% payout the 35% or so time that you win). There, it's +$EV to fold Aces preflop.

[Scuba Chuck]

Fair point pshrek, though it's not a joke. The real question is there ever a point that you would consider folding AA's? I obviously don't think so, thus the call I made. But it crossed my mind.

I am the large stack with 42xBB. Three players b4 me go all-in, leaving me with a 9xBB call. There's only 5 of us left.

You know, the more I think about it, you're right. Who doesn't have the balls to call this?

[rjb03]

[ QUOTE ]
Go to www.twodimes.net (http://www.twodimes.net) and plug some hand combinations into the Poker Odds Calculator. Even against 3 other hands in an all-in situation, you're going to be at least 50% to win the hand and quadruple up(assuming another player doesn't have Aces as well). A decent portion of the time you'll be more like 65% (if you're up against something like AKo and two underpairs).

Once in a while, there will be another AA, but that's still not the worst spot in the world (you'll both probably be at least 60% to double up each).

So...even though you'll be eliminated a decent % of the time here, the reward of quardrupling up more times than not would certainly seem to make that risk worth taking. Maybe you can ICM your expected payout to see just how much equity you gain the times you quadruple up there to have a clearer picture.

I would imagine that absent some HUGE skill advanatage, there aren't many spots where you should fold Aces preflop on the first hand/early in a tourney. I'd say "decision time" is if there's 5 players all-in already (but that's just my guess, no calculations run to back it up).

Let's say the first hand you limp UTG, everyone folds to BB, he bets the flop and you fold. 2nd hand of tourney you're BB, everyone is all-in when it gets to you (the shortest stack of the tourney) and you have AA. With the 50/30/20 payout absent some tie you're pretty much guaranteed 30% of the prize pool by folding (versus winning first and it's 50% payout the 35% or so time that you win). There, it's +$EV to fold Aces preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think you need to reread the post. He can't bust in this hand as he has nearly a 4:1 chip lead. He also can't "quadruple up", obviously.

[pshreck]

Im still confused.

In one sentence, tell me why you were even considering folding.

[Gramps]

Yeah, oops, 2nd time I've "played and posted" and misposted this week.

As the big chip leader here, it's an easy, easy, easy call.

[rci97]

Yeah, I'd fold here. I'd hate to win the hand and have an almost 7:1 chip advantage.

[Scuba Chuck]

Okay Okay. I surrender. I agree. Just had to ask. These questions just pop in your head when you lose the hand.

Thanks for the scolding...

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Fair point pshrek, though it's not a joke. The real question is there ever a point that you would consider folding AA's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there is, but this situation isn't even close.

The only situation I can come up with is on that is in TPFAP. If you're in a satellite where the top prizes are all the same (entry into another tournament), and it's bubble time, it's very possible to be folding pocket Aces if several people go all-in in front of you.

[Gramps]

No worries, the natural reaction in a situation like that is a kind of "oh sh-t, wtf?"

Highly recommend plugging in all-in situations like this on www.twodimes.net (http://www.twodimes.net) Poker Odds Calculator (after the hand is over, of course). Gives you a good feel on your pot equity on some odd situations like this one, can help one to make correct decisions when faced with more difficult spots.

[jaydoggie]

pshrek for the record the 94o wasnt my move. i just noticed you ask if that post was a joke also.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Fair point pshrek, though it's not a joke. The real question is there ever a point that you would consider folding AA's?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a SnG? No.

eastbay

[Biff M.]

I agree there, but I can find plenty of other spots (not very likely ones, though) I'd lay them down pretty quickly.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree there, but I can find plenty of other spots (not very likely ones, though) I'd lay them down pretty quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. Me, too. 35 left in a $10k buy-in. Blinds 1k/2k, you've got 40k left, and the guy to your right is loose-aggressive with a penchant for suited connectors. He has you covered. You're on the button, and get black AA.

Action to you. A guy walks up to you, takes a pistol out of a paper bag and puts it at your head and says "fold the aces or I [censored] blow your head off."

Easy fold.

eastbay

[Marcotte]

[ QUOTE ]
You're on the button, and get black AA.

Action to you. A guy walks up to you, takes a pistol out of a paper bag and puts it at your head and says "fold the aces or I [censored] blow your head off."

Easy fold.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, yes. The old "Smith & Wesson beats four Aces."

[MrMon]

Contrary to what some believe, there actually is a fold AA pre-flop situation, but it's pretty rare. It basially amounts to you being on a small stack, being on the bubble or in 3rd post-bubble, and two players who are ahead of you with nearly even stacks going all-in, and you will dominate whoever loses, if they survive. That's about the only situation.

It would look like this:

Player 1 (3050 chips) All-in
Player 2 (2425 chip) Fold
Player 3 (3000 chips) Call
You (525 chips) (A /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) Action?

If you call, the best you can do is wind up with 1575 chips, probably third, but you can also lose. If you fold, you will either be 3rd, or dominate the survivor in 4th 10 to 1, who will have 50 chips, all for no risk.

In over 700 SnGs, I have never had to do it, and I doubt many others have either, but it does happen.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

Sure. Me, too. 35 left in a $10k buy-in. Blinds 1k/2k, you've got 40k left, and the guy to your right is loose-aggressive with a penchant for suited connectors. He has you covered. You're on the button, and get black AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

Careful man, they're converting you...
FIGHT BACK, DO NOT SUBMIT!

[tigerite]

Oh, I don't know, personally I call here with red AA but fold with black AA, don't you? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Myst]

Fold AA here, and your'e a moron.