Huge pot, how'd I play it?

[ddss6_99]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

<font color="blue"> A little background. I had just sat down at this table a hand ago so I had no reads. But based on having an average pot size of $15 and the first hand I saw, this table was one of the loosest I've ever seen. </font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

<font color="blue"> Could have raised instead of limping, but I was in EP and pretty sure someone left to act would raise. </font>
Flop: (14.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

<font color="blue"> Loose call I know, but there was already 17SB in the pot not to mention the implied odds.</font>

Turn: (10.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

<font color="blue"> Turn improves me by giving me an OESD. I was going to fold to anything that didn't improve me, but in such a big pot (12.25 BB) I think it's worth at least a call. </font>

River: (17.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB calls.

<font color="blue"> Jackpot!! I decide to lead out instead of going for the check raise because MP2 has been betting the whole time, so if he raises it'll allow me to 3-bet instead of check raising and maybe only getting called down. </font>

Final Pot: 32.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 32.75 BB, between MP1, MP2, CO, BB and Hero.</font>

<font color="blue"> P.S. I know how lucky I got, no need to point it out to me. </font>

[Entity]

Preflop: BAD. Very very bad.

You should fold this EVERY time in this position preflop. Never raise it. Ever. This hand can be profitable for some on the button or possibly in the CO. Raising this hand would be TERRIBLE, and limping with it when you are sure someone will raise is worse. If this were JTs, limping is fine. JTo is not.

Flop is fine, since the pot is huge and you're almost closing the action.

I would consider checkraising the turn for value. You're around 5:1 (4.7:1 if all 8 outs are good) to hit with 7 people in the pot.

I would probably checkraise the river, because you've got a ton of people trapped in between you.

Honestly, I think the flop is the only area where I'd play it exactly the same, though check-calling the turn isn't that bad, since you don't know if MP1 will call or MP2 will 3-bet...

Rob

[ddss6_99]

Damnit! I knew somehow that I screwed up preflop lol. That's been the weakest part of my game, but I'm trying to work on it. One question though, I thought that just because cards are suited doesn't make them that much more worthy of a play. If I should be folding J10o, then why shouldn't I fold J10s as well?

[VBM]

suited adds potential-flush value to your hand.

[mr pink]

you could search the forums for a preflop hand chart, i think theres one floating around here somewhere

[ddss6_99]

Yeah, I know that it adds value, but do any of you know how much?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Damnit! I knew somehow that I screwed up preflop lol. That's been the weakest part of my game, but I'm trying to work on it. One question though, I thought that just because cards are suited doesn't make them that much more worthy of a play. If I should be folding J10o, then why shouldn't I fold J10s as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
Suitedness adds about 6% to the value of a hand, IIRC, which takes JTo from being a multiway wanker to a multiway monster. Suitedness doesn't help hands like 92o very much, considering they were worthless to begin, but nice connecting hands, like T9, JT, QJ, and even 89 become much nicer when suited. JTo only has value in one way: making a straight. JTs has value in straights and flushes, giving you the leverage to play it aggressively postflop quite often. For example, if you had JcTc, a checkraise would be obvious on the turn, and you easily would have won a pot of 40bb+.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I know that it adds value, but do any of you know how much?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's either 6% or 9%. I think 6%.

Rob

[Entity]

Put this book on your Christmas list. (http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html#Small%20Stakes%20Hold'em)

[mr pink]

use this for now - here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=999097&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=)

[ddss6_99]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.


<font color="blue"> This time they're suited like you said, so they authorize a limp. </font>
Flop: (10 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

<font color="blue"> With an overcard, gutshot, and backdoor flush draw I think this authorizes a call.</font>
Turn: (7.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

<font color="blue"> Pot isn't as big, but raised for value like you said.</font>

River: (13.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG+1 calls $0.75 (All-In).

<font color="blue"> Got lucky again I guess, but I think one was played a little more solidly? Correct me if I made any mistakes please.</font>

Final Pot: 16.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 15.75 BB, between SB, UTG+1 and Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 0.50 BB, between SB and Hero.</font>

[Shillx]

The turn raise has no EV either way here. You will hit your draw exactly 1 in 3 times (15 outs and 45 unseen cards). When there are 4 people on the turn, then this raise has good value.

Brad

[mr pink]

this one's better but you still want to play speculative hands from late position. this means the button or one off it. there are just too many people yet to act behind you that might kill your implied odds. say, in the hand you posted... it gets raised and then reraised directly after you, everyone folds except the 2 raisers and yourself. you already invested a bet in the pot but calling another 2 cold is terrible in this situation, you should fold. you're just throwing money away for no reason. if you play this hand on the button for 1 small bet, you only have to worry about the blinds raising before you see a flop. see the difference position makes?

[ddss6_99]

hmmm, I see what you're saying. Thanks

[ddss6_99]

Another good point. Thanks for pointing it out because that is obviously a part of my game that is costing me money.

[Shillx]

Limping with this hand up front at a loose passive table is probably +EV if you play well post flop. Limping in with it at every table is surely wrong. Poker is not a game of charts and concrete choices. Everytime you have a preflop decision to make, take into account the big picture.

[mr pink]

yeah everything depends, but a preflop chart is a good place to start just to get the basics down

[cockandbull]

I agree, but i'd still be raising. Heres why, if you bet here you making it more likely to be called on the river. Peoples pot odds will be that much higher, also by raising 0 EV situtaions people are going to be aware of this and will call when you have something better.

It does add to the swings but i feel raising here is good.

[Shillx]

Yeah but if you don't raise you might get bet into on the river. If you hit your draw, you will get 2 bets each if you are lucky. Unless someone check/raises the river, you will likely only get one each if you raise the turn.

[cockandbull]

didn't think about it like that, your right. If hero calls with position and hits, sb will probably lead again getting a caller, hero raises and i'd say one of em will call and the other will fold halve the time giving you 3.5 bets.