Limp with Jacks from EP or raise(and other questions)?

[Hack]

I struggle with decisions like this because different books and different people say different things.

For example, I was scanning the archives and found this post by Mr. Malmuth:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1219419&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1

Apparently, HPFAP advocates limping with JJ in EP in a loose game(and all the games I play in are extremely loose). Yet I thought SSH advocates raising with jacks from EP or from any position(in fact re-raising from any position as well) just because they figure to be the best hand out there at the moment. Are these differences attributable to the different limits the books are geared to?

I've heard many different things about hands like AKs, AKo, Jacks, and Tens.

Here's how I play each of them, and maybe you guys can tell me if this is correct.

At the microlimit on stars I play these hands like this:

Jacks:
Raise from any position. If it's been raised I will probably re-raise unless it's someone I have pegged as a rock(I have notes on some people who only raise with Aces, Kings, Queens, and Jacks, and not with AKs or below) in which case I will fold or call.

With the AKs and AKo I will usually just call the raise. The reason for this is that I find almost all of the games I play in to be extremely loose-passive. Usually when someone raises, they have a real monster(unless everyone has folded to them, but with limpers in front they usually have hands like AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT or AK). I rarely ever see AQs raised.

I will raise with tens but to be honest I don't find them much different from 9s. I am reluctant to raise 10s from under the gun, for example.

Are these huge leaks in my game?

[Entity]

Hack,

The most important thing to remember is that some of these books are crap, and others, which are very good, don't apply to these games.

HEPFAP was not written for today's .5/1 or 2/4 or even 3/6 games. SSH was.

That being said, you should raise and re-raise with AKo, AKs, and JJ-AA. You should also raise TT from any position, though re-raising is opponent and position-dependent.

Just calling raises with AKo and AKs, especially when you have position, is VERY likely to be reasonably large leak in your game. Considering many of these pots are multiway, not raising is often costing you around 2-3BB/hand. Since you are going to be winning with AKo a little over 50% of the time, that could amount to a reasonably large leak in your game.

Rob

[Hack]

I see your points, Entity, but I really wasn't exaggerating when I say that some of these EP raisers are extremely tight. Sometimes as soon as they raise, I think to myself, "I know they have AA/KK", and I toss my Ace-King." Sure enough at the end of the hand 90% of the time I see AA/KK. Some of these players are so tight-passive that they will limp in with Queens as well. If I see one of these uber-rocks come in and raise and get a few callers then you are saying that I should still re-raise them with a hand that is likely a gigantic dog at the moment?

I understand that in typical games poplated by more Laggy and Lap players that I should raise my AK and TT, and I do a lot of the time. But If I see a rock raise from UTG and I have notes on them on Stars, and the notes say that when this person almost always raises with a true monster(AA/KK), then I feel comfortable tossing my AK/AQs, etc.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I see your points, Entity, but I really wasn't exaggerating when I say that some of these EP raisers are extremely tight. Sometimes as soon as they raise, I think to myself, "I know they have AA/KK", and I toss my Ace-King." Sure enough at the end of the hand 90% of the time I see AA/KK. Some of these players are so tight that they will limp in with Queens as well. If I see one of these uber-rocks come in and raise and get a few callers then you are saying that I should still re-raise them with a hand that is likely a gigantic dog at the moment?

I understand that in typical games poplated by more Laggy and Lap players that I should raise my AK and TT, and I do a lot of the time. But If I see a rock raise from UTG and I have notes on them on Stars, and the notes say that when this person almost always raises with a true monster(AA/KK), then I feel comfortable tossing my AK/AQs, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing in games this tight? They aren't profitable.

If you know they are a rock, you change things up. But if they aren't a rock (and most people aren't at these limits), no need to change things up. Not reraising AK is costing you a lot.

Another point, I think, is that your general thinking (at least the language you use) seems to convey a general weak-tightness to your game. If you know someone to only raise AA and KK, and they raise, and only get one caller, you can fold JJ. The problem with that, of course, is that you quickly begin to assume that other people are following the same patterns.

If my stats, over MORE than 150 hands, say something like 8% VPIP, .5% PFR, Tot-A postflop .25, and they raise UTG, I can be comfortable dumping some hands. You just don't come across many players like that, though.

I played my first 15k hands at Stars, and the games are somewhat tighter than Party. They aren't so tight that you should start considering HEPFAP-type plays, though, because that book just doesn't apply there.

Rob

[Hack]

Excellent points.

The games are not tight at all. They are in fact very loose. Maybe rocks was not the best descriptive word to use.

Most of the players at the very low limits on Stars are very loose-passive, with a couple at each table being tight-passive. When either of these types of people raises from under the gun and I have notes on them(I take prodigious notes on almost every player I come across using Stars's not e taking feature), I am much more willing to fold hands like tens and ace-king. obviously if it is someone I do not have a read on I am most likely re-raising. It also depends on how many callers the UTG passive player gets.

I agree that my play is still too weak-tight, but I am trying to work on it. In the meantime, it's not making me suffer losses. I mean overall losses. Obviously if I became more aggressive I could probably get more worth out of sessions.

I hope that clears it up.

[Entity]

To give you an idea of how often you should be raising this, my player database has around 6000 players I've played against. Of them, 20 have VPIPs of less than 15 and PFRs of less than 2%. Those are the only guys who are likely raising KK-AA, or possibly QQ-AA. Even if I change the PFR to 5% (AK-AKs, AQs, JJ-AA), there are less than 50 players who qualify.

Does that give you an idea of how often you should be re-raising with JJ? Keep in mind that most of these players know to raise AK; very rarely do you come across a true rock. So basically, you should be raising JJ more than 99% of the time.

Rob

[Hack]

Thanks for the database info.

A couple questions if I may:

Were you able to call up that database autoamtically using PokerTracker?

Is it possible to make a profit with VP$IP<15% and and PFR <2% in your opinion?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the database info.

A couple questions if I may:

Were you able to call up that database autoamtically using PokerTracker?

Is it possible to make a profit with VP$IP<15% and and PFR <2% in your opinion?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I pulled it up easily in PT.

It is possible to make a profit with VPIP<15% and PFR<2%. It just takes a lot longer than with a VPIP of 18-20% and a PFR of 9-10%, and good postflop skills and aggression.

Rob

[droolie]

Two more good reasons to raise JJ...

- Value. When you can expect to win much more than your share you have an edge in equity against most of your opponents. Push these large equity edges. It's like doubling down in blackjack. In loose games it is imperative to get them to put their money in the pot before they realize the flop has missed them. You don't have to win all the time just a decent amount for this raise to show longterm profit (JJ should win over 45% of the time). The idea is to get the people with low equity to stuff the pot with dead money. You may be behind AA sometimes but most of the time you're not. Even if you are behind AA you're not drawing dead. The dead money makes up for the times you lose to QQ, KK or AA.

- Cull the field a bit. Make others call two cold. Many times you will wind up having more money in the pot but less competition. I always say I'd rather go to the flop against 4 players for 8sb than against 6 players for 6sb.