grad school

[daryn]

ok so i woke up the other morning, and while i was lying there on my back i thought to myself, i'm gonna go to grad school.

problem is i have no clue about grad school in general. do they pay for you to go there? do you have to take the GRE subject test or just the general one? how long does it take? anything else i should know?

c'mon smart guys, thrust your collective wisdom upon me please.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

I'm sure it varies widely depending on your major, but here's what it was like for me going into aerospace engineering at U of Michigan. I had to take the GRE (I took the subject test) and fill out applications to both the UM graduate school and the aerospace department. By default, you don't get paid to go there, but most students get "jobs" with the school either as a Research Assistant (RA) or a Teaching Assistant (TA). The better position to get is the RA position because it generally pays better and you can use the work you do for this towards your thesis. Plus, a TA job can suck, depending on what exact job you get. Both typically pay your tuition and get you an office. Extra pay rates depend on the professor and the funding he has. You don't have to do either, but then you have to pay your own tuition, either out of your own pocket or through student loans. Grad school tuition is pretty hefty, though, so if you take this option, you better get in and get out ASAP.

Edit: I would highly suggest getting in contact with and getting to know some of the professors you think you might want to work with. You may even have an opportunity to do some sort of internship with them the summer before you get there to get yourself in there and on an inside track towards a "real" position. On the other hand, you don't HAVE to have a TA or RA position locked up the first day you get there. You can hang out the first term and get to know the professors and their projects/funding a little better before you commit (sign your life away) to them.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

One more thing to think about: Some professors are better than others at accomplishing different 'career' paths. If you think you just want to get in and get your masters and get out, look for a professor who has a good record of graduating his students. Professors make their money by bringing in research and getting it done. Students are cheap labor for them and it's in the interest of their research and their wallet to keep you around for a while. Some just want to push you through and this can be a problem too if they're just cycling everyone through and not giving them a good education. If you think you want to be a PhD and most likely end up being a professor yourself, then you need to make sure that you get someone who's good at training you to be a professor. Many profs aren't good at this, but some are very good for this. Also, it is of high importance that your professor have enough money to pay you and your tuition, especially if you plan on doing a PhD. Nothing sucks more than doing all the work of an RA and your professor ends up not having the funding to pay you - you're getting the worst of both worlds. Make sure your prof has funding and has a solid pipeline of funding coming in that you can depend on. Established professors are usually better for this, as they know how to play the game and their name means something. I know a great professor at UM who's excellent with his students, but he's relatively new and has trouble attracting and keeping students, as well as funding - it's kindof a chicken/egg thing there, because you can't get students without funding and you can have a hard time getting funding if you can't keep a dependable supply of students.

[daryn]

great points and all, but how do you find out this info? i am totally clueless when it comes to grad school. you just go up and ask the professers? "hey are you one of them guys that ...." ? i would be going for physics, and i'm not sure where i want my ultimate path to lead.

being a university prof. seems like a good gig. but am i really looking to put in that much effort? not sure.

i'm probably more interested in that ba-da-bing style in-and-out master's degree you were talking about /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tron]

Hey I have a quick question about Grad School as well... If you get accepted straight out of college, can you defer enrollment, like you can at most undergrad schools? Because I'm thinking a snowboarding world tour would be pretty sweet.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

If you ask me, a university professor can be a pretty sweet gig once you make tenure. I don't really know, but it seems to me that physics is the kind of major you get a PhD in and then probably become a prof or work in some government lab. Both could be pretty cool, and I'd imagine both would be pretty much research. I guess it depends on your personallity which one you'd like better.

If you're thinking of staying at the same school you're at now, then you should probably have a pretty good idea of the kinds of things your professors do and what kind of people they are. Also, one thing I meant to say before is that if you're going to stay at the same school, the application process, GRE and whatnot are usually just technicalities. I'd just go to who you think best matches your interests after class or during office hours and let them know you're thinking about going to grad school. Just say "hey, I'm coming up on graduation here, I think I'd like to continue on for a [masters, PhD, post-grad] degree, and I have an interest in the things you're doing. Can you give me some more info on any openings you might have or any other professors in the department with similar interests?" Other good resources are the department chair and most schools have some sort of student or grad school counselor. They can tell you all you need to know and can probably point you towards the money and your field of interest. Note I said "money" first - it's important.

If you're thinking of other schools, which usually is a good idea, you can start by checking out their departmental webpages. They'll have all the professor info and a listing of their interests. The professors and counselors you like and respect at your school will also be a good resource for finding good profs and programs at other schools. They all network together and will be more than willing to help you find a good program.

It's been my experience that most professors will talk your ear off about their research given the slightest chance to. They will also usually recruit the hell out of you the instant you show any sort of interest in a post-grad degree. More than this, once you're in, they'll really push you to stay for a PhD (see cheap labor comment above), as it's really nice to have a student stay with you for a while that can grow more and more independent and so that you don't have to re-train someone new every fall.

Another note, if you're thinking about starting next fall, you better get on your application materials pretty quick here - many programs have deadlines in December/January for the next fall. The GRE isn't a problem to get in quick - I think I was in the next weekend after I decided to apply and it's done on a computer, so results are instant. I personally didn't study for it, but some people do. It's really just a glorified SAT and I don't think it's that difficult. You seem like a smart guy, so I'd imagine it's the same for you, but I wouldn't be here telling you not to study for it - that'd be irresponsible. The real tough exam, at least at the UM aero department, was the pre-candidate exam required to be considered a PhD candidate. That thing was a brutal 2-full-day exam covering EVERYTHING in about 2 years' worth of masters-level classes. One day is you at a chalkboard in front of 6 professors answering in-depth questions on the fly and you better know your [censored]. That's one exam you better study your ass off for for about 6-8 months. This is something you don't have to worry about now, but know that it's coming in the future if you want a PhD.

[sam h]

issues like funding, application process, etc really differ across disciplines.

what do you want to study?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey I have a quick question about Grad School as well... If you get accepted straight out of college, can you defer enrollment, like you can at most undergrad schools? Because I'm thinking a snowboarding world tour would be pretty sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you can usually defer at most places, but I'm sure it varies from program to program.

[daryn]

physics... stuff.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
If you're thinking of staying at the same school you're at now, then you should probably have a pretty good idea of the kinds of things your professors do and what kind of people they are.

[/ QUOTE ]


actually i graduated in may. also, i didn't really interact too much with my professers like some of the other kids tried to. i just showed up, learned my stuff, and graduated.

about the GRE, even the subject test is computerized? i thought it was just the generic SAT type one that was available on computer. i had planned to take it sometime this month. i'd probably rather take the EZ SAT style test than my subject test, that's for sure.

thanks again for the replies

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
i didn't really interact too much with my professers like some of the other kids tried to. i just showed up, learned my stuff, and graduated.

[/ QUOTE ]

With only knowing this I would guess grad school is not for you. The people that do well in grad are the ones that intereact a lot with the profs, not they are sucking up, just that the prof is who they have teh most in common with.

RR

[Cubswin]

If you can find a good physics program overseas some place why not consider it? I know you like to travel so why not combine your school with it. I did my MSc in the London and the cost was in the 10k pound range, given todays exchange rate that sucks but back then it was only $15000. The best part about it was i didnt have to take any of those damn tests and i got my masters in 10 months. My grand total was only about $35k with living expenses i also took lots of holidays while there so that added to the cost a bit. If you have a solid GPA, good letters of req and add to the schools international diversity they should eat you up. Did i mention they have juicey PL games there? Is this something you might consider? ... cuz if it is i can keep talking you into it....

cubs

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm probably more interested in that ba-da-bing style in-and-out master's degree you were talking about /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I actually went ba-da-bing in-and-out myself. I did it in 3 semesters, which is pretty much the fastest you could possibly do it. I went through my bachelors knowing that I felt like I had hardly even started and I knew that I couldn't stop there. I didn't really know what exactly I wanted to do for reaearch, but I knew I had to go on. I got to UM and talked to some professors, had a couple semi-interesting leads, but didn't find anything that I wanted to commit myself to. On top of that, I had a bad case of senioritis my last undergrad term. I graduated early in December and took an internship with my current employer that ran January until the next fall. This extra time off only compounded my senioritis and once I was a semester into my grad degree and didn't find a research project that nailed me, I was ready to not be in school any longer than necessary. I got out and back with the company I loved working for the following December and was working as an aerospace engineer with a grad degree at age 22 instead of 'getting into the game' at age 27 or 30, which is how old most of the new guys at my company are.

If an in-and-out masters is what you want to do, then a TA position is most likely what will be best for you. An RA position will keep you there for at least two full years and if you're with a prof that doesn't graduate well, it can be 3 or more. A TA position is usually more of a warm body and you can come and go much easier.

All this being said, you really have to question your motivation if you are sitting in a bachelors program wanting a masters, but wanting to get in and out right away. Typically, post-grad students have a desire to learn about their subject area that translates into a want to be there and learn and forget that they're still in school when they're 40, er... 25. I think you really do get much more out of a masters if you get an RA position and do a lot of work with your prof, but that also means you'll be there a little longer. A PhD is not for you if you're thinking purely of the dollar or if you don't have a strong desire to really dig deep deep deep into your field and then probably be a professor or lab researcher and dig deeper deeper deeper still.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
If you have a solid GPA, good letters of req

[/ QUOTE ]


DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

my GPA is far from solid. if you look at my major courses alone, it looks good, but those other classes sure didn't help.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
actually i graduated in may. also, i didn't really interact too much with my professers like some of the other kids tried to. i just showed up, learned my stuff, and graduated.

[/ QUOTE ]

This suggests that grad school maybe isn't the place for you, as Randy already said. One thing I forgot to mention is that you probably need letters of reference - usually from your profs - to get in to most programs. It might be hard to get that now if your profs never really knew you.

I'd suggest taking some time to think long and hard about this before you go any further and maybe taking a trip down to the school if you're still in the same area or to whatever's local and talk to some profs or counselors to get some good guidance.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
All this being said, you really have to question your motivation if you are sitting in a bachelors program wanting a masters,

[/ QUOTE ]


not sitting in a bachelors program. i graduated already. is that what you meant?

anyway maybe that is the purpose of this thread after all. to convince daryn not to go to grad school. like i have said already, i know nothing about it at all, but i just figured if you want a good job you should probably get one.

[fatmongo]

Are you in it for the masters? Or do you just want to be a professional student?

[MelchyBeau]

Hey, I am in the same boat you are.

I graduated with a physics degree with a not so solid GPA.

Here is the rundown of doing gradschool in physics....stuff.

Most schools will pay you to get your masters degree there, but be warned you are essentially slave labor till you get it done. Many companies will also pay you to get your degree, some up to your Ph.D, You might want to consider a route like that.

You will need to take the General GRE and the Physics GRE. the physics GRE is well, tough as all hell. I am guessing you are an american. If you score above 40% of the people who take the test you are in good shape. The scores get shifted so high because of prospective international students who want to get into grad school in the states, However, US grad schools prefer Americans.

Now about the Physics GRE, Like I said It's a bitch. Also, they only offer it a few times a year. You will want to study alot for it.
Here is a free Resource to use to prepare
http://www.physicsgre.com/

Many physics programs are hurting for students, especially american students. I was accepted into a few different graduate programs with my crappy record, however I am going to take time off and work for 2 years or so before going back to school.

Hope this helped,
Melch

[MelchyBeau]

I forgot some things looking back on it.

The Physics GRE is not computerized. It is on paper.

Also it is sorta looked down on to get your MS from the same place you got your BS from. It is called Academic Incest.

Melch

[MortalNuts]

Hi daryn --

I'm not going to advise you on whether or not you should go to grad school -- I'll just say there are some really huge pluses and some equally huge minuses. I wouldn't even consider it unless you genuinely love the subject, though.

I can tell you about the nitty-gritty stuff, though. For admission to any solid physics program, you'll need both the general GRE and the physics subject exam. The general exam is cake, but don't blow it off, because that looks bad on an application. The subject exam is difficult for most people; in terms of subject matter it covers mainly just basic undergrad physics, but it's decidedly non-trivial.

You've mentioned that your undergrad GPA wasn't stellar. Unless that was from a top school (so the lower GPA can be pretty readily understood), or you are content to go to any physics department that will take you (rather than say a top-25 program), you will need a) solid recommendations and research experience and b) a decent GRE Physics score.

This probably means you should seriously consider not applying to strong programs until next year (for admission in the fall of 2006) -- application deadlines are coming up for most places (and a few have probably passed already), so you're going to be rushing to contact professors, study for the exam, etc. This is not a recipe for a great application.

If you're admitted to a good program, you'll generally be offered a teaching assistant or research assistant position, which will cover your tuition plus a stipend; at some places the pay for the two is exactly the same, at others it's wildly different. Sometimes you're required to teach for a year; sometimes you're not. It really varies a ton. You certainly shouldn't end up paying to go, though. (In my field, astrophysics, I think most departmental stipends are somewhere in the 17-25K range.) Some departments offer support to all admitted students for the first year or two, but then weed out a bunch of people through difficult qualifying exams; at others, quals are just a hurdle through which most jump unscathed.

Expect to spend somewhere between 4 and 6 years for a PhD in physics (in the US -- shorter overseas). It's possible to do it in less, but the average is probably 5 years+.

If you want to know more about the Physics GRE, PM me. I organized a review course for our undergrads a year ago, so I'm reasonably familiar with the exam.

good luck.

cheers,

mn

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
my GPA is far from solid. if you look at my major courses alone, it looks good, but those other classes sure didn't help.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm is the same position, yet I have a kick ass resume. As far as science goes, it doesn't matter. There is very little correlation between grades and accomplishments in the science field. Some companies like Eli Lilly tend to put weight on grades, but even with them it's pretty easy to get around that. What matters is experience and capabilities.

The standard GRE is computerized and there are three sections verbal, analytical, and something else. For you verbal is not going to matter. What matters is that you get a combined score of 1200 in the other two sections. That will get you in. It's pretty easy so I wouldn't worry.

Once in, it's probably best to start talking to professors about Graduate Assistantships. In exchange for 20 hours a week of work, they will pay for your school and give you a monthly stipend. It decreases the amount of hours you need to take to be a full time student as well. Downside is that it takes longer to get through school. But you learn a ton through these programs and they will help you get a job when you get out. Some people actually learn more through these programs than they do in school. Bonus, you don't need to take out student loans when you have an GA'ship. You will work hard though, and they can be hard to find.

[BeerMoney]

Dude, for a US citizen to get into grad school in science and engineering is pretty easy... Don't let a less than stellar GPA dissuade you. Trust me. PM me if you have any questions.

[Michael Davis]

I know a lot about this stuff but much of it has been covered. I don't have time right now but I'll respond tomorrow.

-Michael

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Are you in it for the masters? Or do you just want to be a professional student?

[/ QUOTE ]


i definitely have no desire to be a student. like i said i think the only reason i want the MS is because i believe i can use it to get into a decent job i might actually dig.

[nothumb]

Dude, are you having some sort of crisis or something? Keeping up with the posts about jobs and school and all this. I guess I can't really talk, I made one too, but at least it was about a specific decision with rationales and all that.

I'm not going to grad school until I know exactly what type of job I want and how my degree will help me get it. I think that's a good rule. I already owe enough for my BA.

BTW, I read that UNLV has a large music program including graduate program. Anyone know anything about this? Vegas guys?

NT

[daryn]

not a crisis. crisis implies some sort of panic, no? i'm just trying to figure out what to do.

[nothumb]

Oh. Good.

Well, in that case, my advice is, don't go to grad school until you know what you want to do when you get out, and how the degree you are getting will help you get there. It is also possible that working for a few years rather than going directly to school will give you some perspective on the issue. I dunno. I don't really know what I'm doing either.

NT

[daryn]

the problem i see with working for a few years is, what to do?

all the "good jobs" (and by that i mean something that has anything to do with physics, or even any job i could really enjoy) require MS in physics.

[Tron]

Hey Daryn, how is being a Physics major? I'm a freshman, and I'm thinking about Physics. Does the math need to come easy to you? I'm in Calc and I'm having a pretty rough time, but I'm getting it done... Do I need to be one of those people where it just sort of comes intuitively to stand any chance in upper-level courses? Thanks man.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Do I need to be one of those people where it just sort of comes intuitively to stand any chance in upper-level courses? Thanks man.

[/ QUOTE ]

short answer, yes.

the math gets pretty abstract and hairy. if you're struggling through calc it might not be a good idea. but don't let me dissuade you, surely you could do it if you set your mind to it.

[nothumb]

Ok, so it sounds like you know what you'd want to do (roughly) and what degree you need to get it. /images/graemlins/cool.gif Per my earlier post, I give you permission to go.

NT

[daryn]

haha.. i TOTALLY have no idea what i want to do! i just figure that there are jobs out there in physics that i might dig, but i have no idea what those jobs are! i need help.

[Tron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do I need to be one of those people where it just sort of comes intuitively to stand any chance in upper-level courses? Thanks man.

[/ QUOTE ]

short answer, yes.

the math gets pretty abstract and hairy. if you're struggling through calc it might not be a good idea. but don't let me dissuade you, surely you could do it if you set your mind to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, thanks for the response... I think part of the problem is that it's my first semester and that I've been focusing on other things, like drinking and being lazy... Next semester I've vowed to get my [censored] together, I'll check in with you again in 5 months, cool?

[daryn]

yeah man, you got this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


let us know!

[Michael Davis]

Okay I think much of this is repeat, but here you go:

You do need to take the GRE, and probably the GRE subject test. You need to check individual schools for their requirements. But unless your GPA is really, really sad you are likely looking at schools that will require both. And if your GPA is that sad, it probably won't do much to get an MS from these schools.

For you, taking and doing well on the GRE is extremely important, because it will show that you have potential beyond what your GPA demonstrates. Plus, I would guess that you do very well on standardized tests, so taking these and killing them can only help even for schools that may not require the subject test or something.

As for funding, some schools will fund and some won't. You need to look into the individual program. They all have a few fellowships to give, and often these are based on GRE scores. But, if you are just going for a master's, you will probably not get funding beyond loans in physics. An option that you could and should consider would be applying for Ph.D. programs with the intention of getting a terminal master's or dropping out once you get the degree.

You must have good letters of recommendation, especially if your GPA is low. Although, as I remember, you said your GPA in your major was very high. This is huge. The departments will mostly be concerned about how you did in physics and other related classes. If possible, make sure to provide them with a printout that makes it obvious that you did well in your science classes, even if this is in addition to the transcript.

If you are shooting for the good schools, make your statement of purpose fit their department. With websites, this is easy; look at what a department focuses on (or try to get a feel a decent portion of the faculty) and subtly include that in your SOP. Importantly, be direct and specific about what you want to do, even if you don't really know. Do not include a fluff BS anecdote about your life and how you came to physics or any of that crap. They don't care. Talk about what you want to do; even if you have no idea, make it up.

Anyways, I hope some of that helped. If you have a high GPA in your major it is very good and a lower overall GPA shouldn't hurt too much, but it is good to do everything you can to make sure you demonstrate your capabilities.

Oh, and finally, make sure you apply to 9 or 10 schools. There are so many damn applicants these days that tons of overqualified students are getting rejected. The good schools sometimes receive hundreds of excellent applicants and have to weed it down to ten or so, so even though a lot are getting eliminated on the frontline (first reading), for the rest it is almost a crapshoot.

Anyways, I've read a lot about this, but it is true that my experience is in the liberal arts. I'm pretty sure I have accounted for differences in the sciences, but I welcome corrections from others if I am wrong.

-Michael

[daryn]

one thing, everyone talks about "the good schools" but does it really matter? i don't wear name brand clothes and i see college as essentially the same thing. i mean clearly there are the top few and some on the bottom of the barrel, but i think a lot of no-name institutions still provide quality.

i'm not gonna get into MIT, but state school i see as fine.

[Michael Davis]

If you are discussing quality of education, I think you are essentially correct, especially for undergraduate. The level of education you get at one school doesn't differ much from others. Also, the faculty at the small schools all came from the "good" schools, so presumably they know what they're talking about (and usually they do).

But if you're talking about name value, it makes a big difference if you go to a top dog school. And top dog schools differ depending on what field you are going into. Few people who are not intelligent have heard of the University of Chicago, but it is one of the top five schools in the country in just about every field as ranked by academics, and when you try to get a job in your field this will matter. (Sorry, no source.)

I have no problems with state schools. I attend one. I am definitely not a school snob, but I think you have reason to be concerned with the name. State schools differ in prestige quite a bit (Eastern Michigan, my undergraduate school, versus Michigan, etc.).

-Michael

[turnipmonster]

what kind of jobs require an MS in physics? what sort of job do you want to do? if you are viewing grad school as a means to an end, it might help to figure out in more detail what that end might be.

[2planka]

[ QUOTE ]
it seems to me that physics is the kind of major you get a PhD in and then probably become a prof or work in some government lab.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if it's an area of interest, but I work for a medical imaging company and we have several Ph.D. physicists on staff. We make x-ray machines, mammography machines, fluoroscopes, densitometers, etc. Big-time growth sector, fun work, and lots of jobs.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Next semester I've vowed to get my [censored] together, I'll check in with you again in 5 months, cool?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck with that. Most people always say that they will get it together "next semester."

No time like the present. You can have a lot of fun in college and still do well.

[John Cole]

By all means go. The best deal, if you can get it, is a no strings stipend. You show up and do your work. These are available, but you better be an all star. If not, the life of a TA isn't terrible.

Check with the school to see what sorts of tests they require for admission before you blow a lot of money taking useless standardized tests.

[ddollevoet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you have a solid GPA, good letters of req

[/ QUOTE ]


DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

my GPA is far from solid. if you look at my major courses alone, it looks good, but those other classes sure didn't help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Daryn: My undergrad GPA blew chunks (2.5). I aced the GMAT (which is required for an MBA). Scored at the 92% percentile. I got into the best public part-time MBA program in the country.

If you are serious about grad school. Pick up some sample tests (usually they have both books and software). I believe I used the Kaplan prep materials. I'd highly recommend them.

PS - I never studied for my SAT or ACT. I did OK, but can't help but wonder what I would have scored if I studied for those tests.

Good luck.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
ok so i woke up the other morning, and while i was lying there on my back i thought to myself, i'm gonna go to grad school.

problem is i have no clue about grad school in general. do they pay for you to go there? do you have to take the GRE subject test or just the general one? how long does it take? anything else i should know?

c'mon smart guys, thrust your collective wisdom upon me please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on what you want to study, and the school, but you almost always have to take a grad test and in my experience it is somewhat specialized.

As to getting paid, you can usually get a job as a TA or RA, but the pay is pretty low. Also, you are almost guaranteed up to 18k/year in loans (maybe more now, been a while since I was in grad school). Probably you are better off not taking the job part and playing poker if you are beating the 15/30 party game.

(just read your bio) Physics, eh. Where and what type? Did a year of grad work in experimental nuclear and particle physics, but I was just too burned out on school at the time to stick with it. (oddly, I didn't have to take a test to get in, it was a "what do I want to do? Well, I'll apply for physics grad school, it's after the dead line so I shouldn't get in, and if I do it's probably fate" thing. Needless to say, fate screwed me. Also worth stating, if I knew then what I know now, I would have gone for a PhD in something and tried to get a university job. Now, 8 years later, that is what I am seriously considering for a couple years down the road. Ahhhh, missed opportunities.)

[jen]

I agree with that - figuring out the endpoint first.

Grad school will really suck if you're unsure if you really want to be there -- (a non-trade) grad school is all about the subject that you're studying (as opposed to undergrad where there were added dimensions to school, like liberal arts classes and a social life).

[MortalNuts]

Hi daryn --

It depends a lot on what you want to do with the degree. If you are interested in going into academia -- i.e. you'd like to be a professor at a research institution -- then you're at a huge, huge disadvantage if your PhD is from a less-than-excellent place. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but right now it's simply a fact -- academia is extremely insular. Look at where faculty at your favorite state school got their degrees, and most of them will be from top-25 type places. (Keep in mind that "top 25" doesn't necessarily mean private school -- in a few key physics subdisciplines, I'd rate state schools in the top 5, easily.) There are lots of reasons for this, some of them good and some of them really lousy, but it's by and large true. Really staggeringly good research will probably get you a great job no matter where your degree comes from, but absent that, the boosts you get from a good place are huge.

If, on the other hand, you want to go into industry, I really don't know how much it matters. Probably a good school helps open some doors for you, but beyond that you will (hopefully) be judged on your own merits.

As far as actual quality of education goes, I think it's a mixed bag. Certainly the differences between reputation are vastly larger than the differences in quality in some cases. But top programs do tend to attract lots of research funding, which in turn translates to more research opportunities for you. Plus as a general rule, with lots of exceptions, students at good programs do tend to be stronger and better prepared than students at weak ones, and so the classes and general methodology of the program can naturally aim a little higher.

Basically, my advice is to go to a place where you are neither the strongest nor the weakest student. If getting admitted will be a problem, you might also look for programs that are overall (in physics) just decent, but which have very strong programs in whatever subdisciplines you're interested in.

gotta go. hope this helps a little.

later,

mn

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, my advice is to go to a place where you are neither the strongest nor the weakest student

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good advice. I made the mistake of not following it when I went to law school. My undergrad GPA and LSAT scores were very good and got me in to a top 15 law school. I opted to go to a lower ranked school because they gave me a full academic scholarship. The scholarship would have been REALLY hard to pass up, but in retrospect I think I should have. The school that I went to didn't challenge me in the ways that I think the other school would have.

Another comment that is made at various points in this thread is to figure out a direction before going on to grad school. Again, I think that's good advice. When you have a better idea of where you'd like to go you'll have a much better chance of getting there (if that makes any sense.) Even if you change you mind mid-stream, I think having a purpose is important. What you don't want is for grad school to just be the next thing that you feel like you have to or should do.

[Zeno]

Aimlessness is at times touted as a virtue and perhaps for some it is or is not, but that is not important here; what is important is that I wish to add emphases to Elwood's (and others) comments on having a direction and a goal. This is much more important in Graduate School than you may realize - At least if you wish to get the most out of your education, professors, time, effort, and money. In graduate school you should, in my opinion, make demands of yourself and the people you work with, including Professors.

This will make your time in Graduate School much more enjoyable, rewarding, and fulfilling, even if the schooling does not further or enhance a career path.

And a TA is not all that bad. In fact, it can be rewarding in itself if you take the right attitude about the work.

Hope it all works well for you no matter what your decision is. I think you should go – provide you really wish to and are committed to doing it with vigor.

-Zeno

[J.A.Sucker]

Grad school is a very different beast than undergrad, and it has good points and bad points. I frankly don't know what your major is, and I haven't read through all the other responses in this thread, which may have made this point clear. However, I'll make two assumptions, and you can choose from them, since one will likely be applicable. For either one, you're gonna have to take the GRE general test (which is usually the most important one) and the subject test too. Even if the school doesn't require it, you should submit the score - it can't hurt you.

1. You are a computer science, engineer type.

This means that you'll likely be going for a Master's degree, and I frankly don't see as much reason to go. You will have to pay your own way, but you can offset most, if not all, and possibly get a little income, from being a TA. TA'ing is really fun, and you learn a lot, even from teaching something that you think you really know. I recommend it highly. Further, the amount of research that you'll do is really limited, since it's not a very long program. The program is so short, that you should just finish it out, even if you hate it. When applying for a Master's degree program, I think it doesn't really matter too much where you go, since it's really a book-based education, like undergrad, though you should go to the "best" program that you can, since employers often look there first (usually they hire summer interns, which will lead to full-time employment upon graduation). You should be able to finish a Master's in about 1.5-2 yrs. In all, I don't really know how many more job-opportunities the Master's will open for you, and the intellectual stimulation is actually pretty low. This is why I don't really see the point of going. If you want more school, go to business school, where an MBA is actually a useful thing.

2. You're some sort of science person, you want to do serious applied science research, or you want to pursue some other humanities endeavor (psych, english, whatever). This means that you're doing a PhD program. If you want to do this, you better really love what you do. Depending on the program and school, you're looking at 5-8 years of school. You'll only have classes for 1-2 years in most programs (some don't require any). The rest, it's all you. If you do a humanities program, you have to pay your own tuition, and you can get grants to pay for you (and pay your rent), or you can TA. The financial situation is just like the Master's program, really.

If you're science or applied science (engineering), you're gonna be doing a bunch of research, and this is the whole point of your going. Basically, you're gonna have a job, and that job is to get the best publications that you can on your own research. You'll do things that the world has never done before - this is really satisfying, and nothing can compare to it. It also means that 99+% of your days are complete failures. This burns many people out and really tries anyone. However, the highs are really high.

You get paid full tuition and a small stipend to go to science grad school, and this is enough to pay your rent and food, but no frills. It's not bad, though. Your only boss is the professor who you work for, and he/she dictates how horrible your life is going to be. However, they also give you lab space, funding, and are invaluable for ideas. A good advisor will allow you to take many risks to try to get the best results, but will also make sure that you don't piss away all of your time by giving you some surer bets to do.

If you go for a PhD, then it absolutely matters where you go to school. The whole cycle of funding is kind of cruel, and you have to realize that the more good results that you get, the more funding you get, the more good people can get hired and the more good research can be done. If you go to a second-rate program (even out of the top 10), then generally you'll be doing second-rate research. You won't have the money to buy equipment that you won't. You won't have the big-name advisor who can get your papers into the best journals, and give you opportunities at the biggest conferences. Finally, your co-workers won't be the best (be they other grad students or post-docs). This is the biggest blow. If you go to St. Nowheresville U, then all of your classmates will be Chinese, and will speak little or no English, generally. This will be tough to deal with, but it's true. Finally, when you hire, most employers say the following:

I need five people for this year. We'll make two recruiting trips: one to the Northeast and one to the west. We'll hit Harvard, MIT, and Columbia, then we'll go to Berkeley, Stanford, and Cal-Tech. We won't have to go anywhere else.

That's how it generally works. Sure there are exceptions, and those are because there are some outstanding faculty at certain places. If you go work for a Nobel Laureate, then it doesn't matter that he's somewhere else. He's the thing that matters, and he'll take care of you.

Finally, getting into science grad school is actually fairly easy for Americans, since most kids don't go. The most important thing to have is strong letters of rec. You need at least one incredible one, preferably from a prof whom you worked with at some point. Often, he can call his buddy at the school you want to go to and they'll make sure you get in, application bedamned. Science is a small world, and everyone knows everyone else. That's just the way it is, and I'm Just Another Sucker.

[daryn]

ok some more info on me


i like the idea of possibly being a TA and using that to pay for tuition. everyone seems to be talking about it as a bad thing for some reason.

whoa, $18k in loans? i was under the impression that it was almmost free if you are a TA and whatnot.

sucker, i would go into physics, just because i'm looking to get a decent job doing something physics related, and all the jobs seem to require MS.

problem with letters of recommendation: i don't really know any of my professors on more than a classroom basis. they know who i am but that's about it. maybe 1 guy that i did a side project with but even him, does he know me that well? i doubt it.

the biggest problem i see is that everyone else going to grad school seems to know exactly what they want to do, and i have zero clue. i just see it as a necessary step to getting a job i can stand.

[MortalNuts]

hey daryn --

for physics specifically, the people who are talking about 18K in loans are probably nuts. I don't know anyone who's taken out that much for grad school in a PhD physics program; maybe you can do it in a master's-only track, but I don't know why you would, instead of joining a PhD-track program that gives you a master's along the way (at which point you can reevaluate whether to stay or go). I know of two friends from grad school (out of like 40) who took out some loans to support a fairly lavish lifestyle (renting your own house, etc.), but it's emphatically not the norm. (This does depend on where you decide to go, of course, since some places pay more and the cost of living varies a lot -- e.g., it's hella expensive to live in Cambridge or Berkeley, so loans might be a more attractive/necessary option depending on your lifestyle.)

I loved being a TA, btw, and did it again (as an overload kind of thing) even later, once I had an external fellowship that paid my stipend, tuition, travel, etc.

The letters of recommendation thing might be a bit sticky, since those do tend to carry a lot of weight at many places. Again, postponing your application for a year and doing some research with a local university part-time has the potential to allow you to get at least one very strong rec, presuming you do a good job. It will also maybe tell you whether you enjoy research or not, and that'll help in figuring out what kinds of physics-y jobs you might enjoy. Alternatively (or, of course, additionally), you can completely destroy the Physics GRE -- anything above an 80th percentile starts to look very good, and anything above 90 will (for better or for worse) cover lots of holes in your CV.

later,

mn

[Zeno]

Daryn,

Mr. Sucker made an excellent post and nailed just about everything about graduate school very well. I did not read every response but trust Mr. Sucker (and Zeno if you must) - Being a TA is not a bad way to help pay for your post-graduate education. You can also get loans at a very reasonable rate to pay for additional things or if the TA does not cover all your expenses (mine did not). They are a bit of a pain and it took me a number of years to finally pay mine off but it was well worth it in my opinion.

It is too bad that you did not get more involved in your undergraduate work and get to know your professors better, the old boy network, however much you or I may deride it, is very alive and important - especially if you wish to persue graduate work.

[ QUOTE ]
the biggest problem i see is that everyone else going to grad school seems to know exactly what they want to do, and I have zero clue. i just see it as a necessary step to getting a job i can stand.

[/ QUOTE ]


You really need to resolve this issue. If you do not have a firm plan and goal in mind then do not, I repeat, DO NOT go to graduate school for a hard science. It would be very foolish. And you are not a fool, so don't become one.

If you really want to go to graduate school, make some plans, set some goals, talk to your old professors, write letters, read up on physics research that interests you and learn about the people that are working on things that you personally find exciting and interesting along with all the latest theories or ideas current in the field. Find out about the people doing the research related to things that you also find interesting and pursue them as a first option to work with. This will really help you decide things, in my opinion. The rewards of graduate school can be substantial. But much will be expected of you. And there will be hard times. But when you finish you will begin to appreciate what you have accomplished in full, and that is a beautiful feeling.

-Zeno

[MelchyBeau]

Zeno is right about waiting to know what you really want to do before going to grad school. It would be a waste to get your MS in Astrophysics if you really want to go into optics.

As for the loans part, unless you are supporting a family or you have some major expenses, I don't see you needing loans. Most schools will give you some sort of assistanceship either research or teaching or both, to pay for your college. You can also moonlight as a physics Tutor. I was able to make 20 an hour tutoring the past 2 years as an undergrad. Of course you could always play poker for a living.


I am going to repeat a second choice that I stated earlier. Find an employer who will pay for your grad school, this is a plus in multiple ways. One, you will probably get more money this way during grad school, and two you will have a guaranteed job when you get out.

Melch

[J.A.Sucker]

Zeno is correct on this. In physics, you better really want to go before you go, or you will have no shot of being happy. Realize that there are no physics MS programs, they are all for the PhD. If you get a masters, it means that you flunked out (or quit). It's the consolation prize. Frankly, if that's your goal, don't bother, since the jobs that require a master's in physics are all obtainable with a bachelors. You will get full funding for all of your stuff in physics. Drop me a PM and we can talk about it over the phone. There's way too much to talk about via email, but I can lay it all out for you, since I know how it all works, and even know some interesting things you can read about.

Best,

Sucker

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
ok some more info on me


i like the idea of possibly being a TA and using that to pay for tuition. everyone seems to be talking about it as a bad thing for some reason.

whoa, $18k in loans? i was under the impression that it was almmost free if you are a TA and whatnot.

[/ QUOTE ]

TA isn't the only way. You could get an RA'ship or a GA'ship. You don't teach, instead you do work/research for a professor. In return you get school paid for and a monthly stipend.

[fnord_too]

Response: Dead on

Location: Absurd!

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
ok some more info on me


i like the idea of possibly being a TA and using that to pay for tuition. everyone seems to be talking about it as a bad thing for some reason.

whoa, $18k in loans? i was under the impression that it was almmost free if you are a TA and whatnot.

[/ QUOTE ]

TA isn't the only way. You could get an RA'ship or a GA'ship. You don't teach, instead you do work/research for a professor. In return you get school paid for and a monthly stipend.

[/ QUOTE ]


TA seems like the best option for me

[elwoodblues]

Would you be required to purchase a sport coat with the patches on the elbows? That would be cool.

[daryn]

all the TA's i have ever had just look like students.

[elwoodblues]

If you can't where the cool sports coat, what's the point?

[daryn]

$$$$$$$$$$$

[elwoodblues]

You make a convincing argument...

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
$$$$$$$$$$$

[/ QUOTE ]

daryn, why do you need to TA when you would be making a lot more money 4 tabling? For you being a TA is -EV.

[daryn]

playing online poker sucks

[theBruiser500]

maybe for a living online poker sucks but 1 hour a day of solid poker will get you a lot of money. how much does a ta make per hour anyway? i'm not putting down, being a ta, if you like being a ta that is great, i'm just saying in terms of hourly rate look at ta and online poker.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
playing online poker sucks

[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif
You prefer brick and mortar? Don't tell me your getting burnt out on poker altogether.