KQo, just calling a check-raise on the flop

[ode]

I usualy would 3-bet this hand on flop , but what do you think of this line...


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, UTG calls, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 15.50 BB, between MP3 and Hero.</font>


/ode

[David BB]

I think calling with the intention of raising the turn is fine in this situation.

[ecooke]

I do this all the time and have had wonderful results (I also often c/r the Turn, position permitting).
The line looks good.

[GrunchCan]

I'm 3-betting the flop to try to shut out as many opponents as possible.

[AdamL]

I still don't understand why 3-betting with TPTK is *standard*.

Don't get me wrong. I totally understand why a 3-bet when raised by someone who regularly raises flush draws (two-suited board) may be appropriate, when the player raises without facing the field with two-cold.

But why is 3-betting *standard*? Shouldn't you be looking for a reason to 3-bet, and not vice versa? Usually a raise, on any post-flop street, means two-pair or a monster draw. It can sometimes mean a strong top pair from an aggressive player reacting to a bet on the flop.

What other benefits are there to 3-betting that make it standard, even on rainbow boards?

(Obviously it doesn't quite apply in this hand.)

Thoughts on the hand:

CO is raising the entire field with two-flush on the board, and a possible straight draw too. You make money by 3-betting here, and maybe you force some weak draws to fold.

You can't wait for the turn to raise, here's why:

You would wait for the turn to raise if you thought you had the best hand still, and wanted other hands to fold. Well, the problem is, if he is raising a weaker hand on the flop he isn't going to bet the turn. If he does bet the turn, it frequently means he has a set or something and you'll be in for the worst of it.

If you suspect you are being raised by a draw on the flop, you must make your 3-bet on the flop. You probably won't get a chance to raise on the turn, since a draw won't fire another bullet.

(Of course, reads trump. If he's lag enough, he'll keep on firing.)

[ecooke]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 3-betting the flop to try to shut out as many opponents as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Three betting this Flop does nothing to protect the Hero's hand. There are 16 SB in the pot when the action gets back around and rasing will create no worse odds than 1:9. With reasonable implied odds, even a gutshot can let one more slide off at that rate.

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm 3-betting the flop to try to shut out as many opponents as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Three betting this Flop does nothing to protect the Hero's hand. There are 16 SB in the pot when the action gets back around and rasing will create no worse odds than 1:9. With reasonable implied odds, even a gutshot can let one more slide off at that rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most players, including some good ones, will tend to think their chances of drawing dead and even if they are getting slight pot odds, will drop. Middle pair etc. are definitely dropping, and if they improve to two-pair your hand is toast.