Backgammon Cash Games Online

[beset7]

I was just wondering how many have or are currently playing any of the online backgammon cash games? I used to play at true money games but after realizing how easy it would be to cheat with Snowie or gnubg I quit for the most or if I do play I play free games at FIBS or The Zone or ultra low states ($1 a point) at TMG. Do you guys feel that backgammon is much riskier then playing poker online in terms of cheating? TMG says on their web page that they monitor the site for signs of people using Snowie but I'm just skeptical. I haven't checked out Gamesgrid. I've heard the games are tougher since there is a membership fee. Still worried about cheaters. Atleast with collusion in poker there is the sense that most people really aren't smart enough to give themselves too much of an edge colluding. And if they are, they'd probably just beat the game straight up. In Backgammon, Snowie 4.0 pro can make you practically unbeatable. At $100 a point even a morally firm person is going to have the idea run through their head however briefly.

Thoughts?

[Iceman]

Online poker is 99% safe if you only play on the four major sites, and at limits below 10-20. If that's the case, and you're paying attention at all, the chance of you being colluded against for any significant loss is almost zero. In over a thousand hours of playing online on three sites, I've seen probable collusion twice.

On the other hand, backgammon cheating is very simple. Even shareware programs can beat all but the best human players, and even without an actual bot it's easy to just use a program that analyzes a position to find the best move. I wouldn't play backgammon online for real money at all, regardless of how well you play offline.

[beset7]

Yeah, I agree. True Money Games (www.truemoneygames.com) claims to have Snowie 4.0 Pro monitoring all the games for signs of unnaturally expert play but I just don't find that comforting enough. I'll still play the ultra low stakes games because the potential for loss is low and i don't see why anyone would go through the effort of having Snowie or Gnubg analyze the position when you have $3 or $4 on the line. It's just too bad there arent a lot of opportunities to gamble on backgammon outside of Europe. It's really a gambling game and the cube and a lot of other things that make it fun lose their purpose when there is no money on the line.

Everyone on the free sites just wants to play DATW (double all the way) so that games affects their player rating as much as possible if they win. The doubling cube is what made backgammon an interesting gambling game without it I don't see the point.

[ToneLoc]

More than cheating, the problem is that at high stakes, like the 100 usd you mentino, you will only find extremely good player. That's true both on gamesgrid and TMG.
Some of these guys dont even need to cheat to play alomost perfectly according to Snowie Standards.
Good luck!

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, backgammon cheating is very simple. Even shareware programs can beat all but the best human players, and even without an actual bot it's easy to just use a program that analyzes a position to find the best move. I wouldn't play backgammon online for real money at all, regardless of how well you play offline.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've won thousands of dollars playing backgammon for money online. I used to be worried about people cheating, and I looked for evidence of this. Although people might have used a bot to check an individual play here or there, that isn't effective. The vast majority of online backgammon players are clearly not cheating on most tough decisions. Most players should be more worried about playing strong human opponents than they should worry about someone cheating, and they should analyze their matches with a bot to see how well their opponents play. Someone using a bot consistently would stand out immediately and would be easy to avoid.

By the way, in backgammon, "bot" refers to any program that can play backgammon.

[AngryCola]

It's still far less safe than playing poker online. The possibility that one of your opponents uses snowie or gnubg for just ONE tough decision is too high for my tastes.

You are probably right that anyone doing it consistently will be caught. Still, it's just not secure enough for my liking.

[gaming_mouse]

pzhon,

Just out of curiosity, why do you think people aren't cheating? I've never played backgammon online and don't plan to, but it seems that if it were really that easy,people would do it.

gm

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, why do you think people aren't cheating? I've never played backgammon online and don't plan to, but it seems that if it were really that easy,people would do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
On most sites you can record the matches, and analyze them with a bot. Anyone using a bot on every move (even a different bot than the one you use) will have an extraordinarily low error rate. I analyze almost all of my matches, and my opponents very rarely have such error rates. (When they do, it is usually a known strong player.)

Top human players sometimes have very low error rates by chance, so a low error rate is not enough evidence to conclude that someone is cheating. It may be enough to decide it isn't a good bet to play someone.

In practice, I almost always conclude that if someone is cheating, it is not by enough to overcome my advantage.

[doublesnapper]

Where do you, pzhon, play for money regularly. I'm looking for a safe place for my funds, and a place also reasonably policed for bots.

Edit: What's the highest stakes level that an 1850 rated player can still make money over the rake?.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you, pzhon, play for money regularly. I'm looking for a safe place for my funds, and a place also reasonably policed for bots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played a lot on GamesGrid. I recommend it. Be careful that many of the world's best players are there, not always with the world's best ratings or best known names.

I don't like the way that TrueMoneyGames pretends to protect people from those who use bots, but hardly did anything when they caught a well-known Danish player cheating. His real-life error rate in tournaments has been over 5, but online his error rate was 1 (closer to Snowie than Snowie is to perfect play), and he admitted that he cheated. As far as I know, nothing was done to compensate his opponents, and he was allowed to continue playing on TrueMoneyGames.

[ QUOTE ]
What's the highest stakes level that an 1850 rated player can still make money over the rake?.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what you mean. Ratings are relative, and the normalization depends on the server. People often throw their ratings. You can compute what advantage you need to overcome the rake, but that advantage does not correspond to a particular stake. The people who play for $100/point are not necessarily better than those who play for $5/point. To profit, you just need to find one person willing to give you money.