15-30 - ATs

[MarkD]

I think pretty much every street is debatable here. I didn't have a read on UTG since this was his first hand at the table. Comments appreciated.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG posts a blind of $15. CO posts a blind of $15.
<font color="CC3333">UTG (poster) raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.50 BB, between UTG, UTG+1, MP2 and Hero.</font>

[ecooke]

I like it, except the River check.
Why no bet? Fear of UTG+1 c/r?

[J.R.]

I don't think the preflop and river play are too consisent, although I can understand why the turn call by the pfr might have caased you to worry if you kicker was best. If that's the case, other than not coolcalling preflop you might consider riasing the flop to see how he reacts. But having gotten this far I'd get the river, cause you have 2 opponents who might call and if UTG has an A with a better kicker he isn't going to check-raise the river after just calling the turn unless he improved, and you have an easy fold to a check-raise. I'd really consider 3-betting prelfop if you think your hand is playable.

[Trix]

Considering that he posted UTG he is most likely a clown and there are two coldcallers, you have position and quite posibly the best hand, so why not 3bet preflop ?

I´d raise the flop too, trying to get rid of either blind if they hold a 3 or 5.

I´d probably valuebet the river too, but since you didnt think your hand was best pre, I guess I can see the check, but only if you think he has a better kicker, they wont have a 5 that often.

[MarkD]

I just noticed that I forgot to mention that I did not notice this guy had posted UTG. Playing 4 tables this detail slipped my attention. I thought he open raised UTG.

[BusterStacks]

I think you need to raise this flop 100% of the time.

[Trix]

I´d probably fold preflop then, but call with one more coldcaller. Maybe party 15 is loose aggro enough to call this here though.

I still raise the flop.

[MarkD]

I'm sorry I didn't get back to this thread sooner. I really meant to but I was all busy weekend.

If I had realized this guy posted UTG I would have assumed he was a knucklehead and would have 3-bet pre-flop. I didn't notice this though and thought it was a legitimate UTG raise.

Clark posted a thread a few months ago in mid-high specifically asking how many cold-callers are needed to call a raise with A5s on the button after a legitimate UTG raise. The majority of the strongest posters (IMO) responded with 2. I didn't agree with it at the time, but decided this hand was a good time to consider it (my kicker is better than a 5 which swayed me into calling here). Also, the two cold-callers were loose and bad players (a little worse than the typical 15-30 players). This was what I was thinking about when I cold-called pre-flop instead of folding. I was also tired when I played this hand which may have contributed to the weird post-flop play.

I would typically raise this flop to drop the SB and BB and take the initiative but a few things lead me to smooth call instead:
a) This board is ragged. There are no real draws here except backdoor flushes, backdoor straights, gutshots (for hands with a 3 or a 5 in them), and draws to two pair type hands. I’m not all that concerned with hands with a 3 or a 5 in them. I know smooth calling gives them correct odds, but I don’t think my opponents will have these two cards in their hands often. The same reasoning leads me to believe that 2’s and 4’s really aren’t going to be too dangerous for me all that often and this leaves opponents drawing to 3 outs if they have an ace.
b) I may not be best here but it’s probable that a Ten will make me the best AND I have odds to draw to this ten. I consider pretty much everyone else in the pot to be dead money except UTG. I like that these players are giving me an overlay when I am ahead and at the same time giving me value when I am behind. I’m really ok with these players continuing to the turn.
c) I was tired and I think I have been playing possum too much lately.

Now, on the turn I still think I “may” be best here but I am not feeling really good about my hand. Having said that I think this is a clear raise.
a) I may be best and if so my equity is very high.
b) I have two opponents yet to act behind me.
c) The board contains a flush draw now.
d) Lots of people play cards that have a nine in them and with this many callers on the flop some of my opponents definitely saw the turn with undercards to the Ace.
e) I can see a free showdown yet retain the right to bet if I do improve. I also may decide to bet the river here – I am not fully decided on my river action at this point in the hand.

So, I feel fairly good about my turn play.

The river… I don’t feel very good about this. I’m a value better – I believe in thin value bets and I generally make them, but at the same time I have been getting check raised a TON on the river lately. This is a weak excuse but at the time this as on my mind as well as the fact that after UTG called my turn raise I felt it was unlikely he would pay me off with a hand that AT beat. I didn’t think he was raising UTG with a weaker ace and if he has an underpair my turn raise clearly shows him that he is beat. My turn raise could also really slow down a hand like AJ or AQ, two very reasonable hands for an UTG raiser. I also thought that one of my opponents probably had a draw and wouldn’t call this river bet with just one pair after I raised on the turn. Also, now there are 4 cards to a straight.

This was my thinking on the river. I must say, I don’t like it. It’s overly complicated and confused and weak. I should simply bet this river and fold to a check raise. If my opponent is loose and aggressive maybe I can pay him off but few opponents are going to check raise bluff this river with 3 players in the pot. I think I should have value bet this here but believe it is a very thin value bet and I don’t entirely hate my logic for checking through on the river.

Sorry for the long delay in response and the long post but I really wanted to clarify my thoughts during this hand to see what others think about them.

[sthief09]

I like it postflop. preflop is tough

[MarkD]

I like it postflop.

That's surprising. No one else seems to. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

preflop is tough
I agree. I'm not sure how I feel about this play yet, and it's been a few days.

[bisonbison]

Man who post under gun may fire blanks.

So, I, uh, 3-bet preflop, because, really, I think I'm best are good handedness blah blah blah and 3-betting does things that are expensive and positional.

Given that you called, I think postflop is fine, but I think you have a river bet.

Any read on UTG+1?

[BottlesOf]

I'd raise the flop, but I can see waiting for the turn too.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
Considering that he posted UTG he is most likely a clown

[/ QUOTE ]

I always post in any position just to piss you nits off. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

NT

[bisonbison]

I always post in any position just to piss you nits off.

In Denmark, the clown is second only to the florist in accolades.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
Any read on UTG+1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. A minor one - I had played less than 10 hands against him but he was in the post everytime and was at the river on most of them. He won most of those hands too but they weren't pretty.

He was a fish and I thought he could have pretty much any hand here including a backdoor flush draw. I wasn't worried about him on the river really - UTG was the player I was concerned with.

[nothumb]

Dude, I don't have time to think about this, WTF are you talking about Confucius? Aside from Trix being a Dane, I think. I have been drinking again.

BTW I think you three-bet pre-flop, but, again, I get aggressive when I drink. Good thing the girlfriend is asleep. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

NT

[J.R.]

The majority of the strongest posters (IMO) responded with 2.


There was some vocal dissent (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=332388&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1)

[MarkD]

Just noticed that in my huge reply I didn't include the results.

UTG had K/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif and UTG+1 had Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. It just so happens that I missed out on close to 2 bb's on the river here. These two jokers are going to pay me off very often if I bet the river. Now, I didn't know this when I played the hand and I'm not being results oriented but this "thin" value bet has value because of situations where you are against two clowns like I was in this hand.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
The majority of the strongest posters (IMO) responded with 2.


There was some vocal dissent (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=332388&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I know there was dissent. It was an excellent thread. My memory may be foggy but I do remember a lot of player that I really respect (hence the IMO qualification in the initial statement) saying that 2 cold callers was enough. I'll have to re-read the thread. This is not the first time I have been involved in a situation related to that thread.

I think this pre-flop situatino is interesting.

[J.R.]

me too. I miss astro in the strategy forums.

[MarkD]

I miss astro in the strategy forums.

Me too - that guy has game and knows how to elucidate his thoughts.