Bet into with TPTK

[adanthar]

Eighth or ninth hand of a 50+5. Two people have already busted and I'm a little shortstacked with ~800.

I pick up A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif in MP and raise 1 limper to 75. The BB and the limper call for a pot of 225.

The flop is A /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB checks and the limper bets 200. I think for a little while and call. BB folds. Standard?

Turn below in white - read this after you answer the first part: <font color="white"> The turn is an offsuit 7. The limper now bets 90 into the pot of 600 or so. I pretend to think and then push my 600. </font> Standard?

[Avgard]

On the flop, I like a raise. You ask if standard??? Some may call only, but that gives the BB odds for a call (3 to 1). I like raise and get heads-up, possible ending the hand there.

I agree with you turn play. Small bet suggests a pair of 1010 or 99, weak ace or flush draw. I agree with end the hand now or make him make a bad call. There is always the possibility of a set, however, I would expect a larger bet on turn for value. Especially since you called a pot size bet on flop and he would want to drive out any flush draw himself.

Curious of result.

[rci97]

A set is always possible here, but is there anything wrong with just pushing after the 200 flop bet? That's probably how I'd play it. Put my chips in the middle and be done with it. If someone's got a set, you're beat anyway, but make the draws pay here. Am I being too simplistic about this?

[Unarmed]

No. but OESDs are unlikely due to the PF raise, and both the flush A and K are accounted for. A draw just isn't likely here. Hero is up against a weaker ace, an underpair, or a set. If its the latter wave bye bye to my stack.

I like a cheesey little min raise on the flop to hopefully get Villain pot commited with a worse hand. The call is fine too but I'm not pushing the turn after that weak @ss bet. You have him, don't let him get away by pushing. I raise to around 350 here.

[Avgard]

The only reason I suggested a flush possibility in my above post is the person involved limped and then called getting just about 3 to 1 odds. QcJc or Jc10c are possible hands. I don't mean that like all hands a possible. Just hands where I can see a limper and then a call with odds. I agree the more likely culprits are middle pair (lower end between A and 8) and weak ace.

[rci97]

What you write makes sense, but if you're up against a set, you're bye bye after pushing on the turn anyway. The reason I might just be all in on the flop is that he only got an extra 90 chips from his opponent before pushing anyway. For that, a weaker ace (AQ?) or a draw gets to see the turn card. Is that the risk / reward worth it?

[jcm4ccc]

The limper is making a pot-sized bet, which means that he wants to win the pot right there. Maybe he hit a set or a 2 pair and is worried about the flush draw, but that seems unlikely. I would put him on something like AQ, or AJ, or perhaps even a flush draw himself.

The BB might be setting a trap, but you can't worry about that. You have a stack of 700, and the bet is 200 to you. That's almost 30% of your stack. I think you're ahead. I would go all-in. You may lose if you allow the limper (or the BB) to draw another card.

I don't understand why you would go all-in on the turn, if you weren't willing to go all-in on the flop. You were in a better situation on the flop. Now there is a 3 straight on the board, and the limper has a better idea about the strength of his own hand and whether or not to call your all-in bet. And if the limper had you beat on the flop with a set or a 2 pair, then he still has you beat.

[rci97]

My point exactly, couldn't have said it better myself jcm.

[adanthar]

Let me be a little clearer here:

-On the flop, I put the bettor on an ace (AQ would play this way, for example) or a flush draw. The draw didn't worry me too much because I had the K and would be able to take a free card on the turn if it hit.

The BB didn't worry me one bit unless he were to smooth call.

Also, while I didn't think it through that thoroughly, the pot on the flop is now big enough so that a flush draw calls an all in anyway.

Turn comment in white: <font color="white"> This flop bet followed by this turn bet is a draw 99.7% of the time. </font>

[rci97]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, while I didn't think it through that thoroughly, the pot on the flop is now big enough so that a flush draw calls an all in anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good. Don't you want the flush draw to call the all in on the flop? If you wait until the turn, he gets off easy.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Good. Don't you want the flush draw to call the all in on the flop? If you wait until the turn, he gets off easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I just mean that protecting my hand against a draw doesn't do me that much good on the flop, especially when I have the king.

Another reason not to go all in on the flop is because that lets AJ off easy.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me be a little clearer here:

-On the flop, I put the bettor on an ace (AQ would play this way, for example) or a flush draw. The draw didn't worry me too much because I had the K and would be able to take a free card on the turn if it hit.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm even more confused now. You have a good hand but not a great hand. You are ahead on the flop (at least by your read on the betting). You need to make your opponent pay to see the next card.

Suppose you do go all-in the flop and your opponent calls you with a flush draw. You're still a 2:1 favorite.

So what would you do if the third suited card did hit on the turn? How would you play your hand then?

[rci97]

I'm not ripping the way you played the hand. It's just at the level that I play at (10's), people will play with all sorts of hands and call with all kinds of draws. A hand like this, I'm not going to out think myself. If I feel like I've got the best hand on that flop and facing a bet for 1/3 of my stack, I'm pushing. TPTK is a nice hand, but a flush could have hit on the turn or a weaker ace could have caught his J or Q. AND you gave the flush draw the ability to fold to the push on the turn. Facing a set you're dead anyway. Just push the flop, IMHO.

[jcm4ccc]

Here's another way to think about it. Let's assume, as you do, that your opponent is working on a flush draw. He has just made a 200 chip bet on the flop. What does your opponent want you to do?

His favorite scenario: you fold
His second favorite scenario: you call his bet
His least favorite scenario: you go all-in

His least favorite scenario should be your favorite scenario.

[adanthar]

If the third club hits the turn, I check behind. His bet on a non/club river then determines where I stand. However, it's 4.2:1 against hitting the turn.

A much bigger problem than the flush potentially hitting on the turn is AQ-AT, an 8:1 dog, being able to fold if I go all in on the flop.

Edit: At the $10 level, I push the flop in a microsecond.

[rachelwxm]

On the flop, I put him on a weak ace like AQ or draw. For draw, sometimes check raise all in would be a better option since he could representing an ace here in case you have KK-JJ.

I don't see how you could rule out weak ace on his turn action. If he bet strong with weak ace and get called, he would slow down a little fear you could have him outkicked.

I would definitely make a big raise on turn or even push here. If he catch two pair or draw could be a disaster and it does not smell like a trap either. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[adanthar]

The guy immediately called and turned over pretty much the worst case scenario, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. A 9 did hit on the river.

I'm still convinced I played the hand correctly; if he has an ace, this play works far better, and as it was I did a far better job protecting my hand against a huge draw. However, if I put him squarely on the flush draw, as has been pointed out this isn't so good.

Final bump.

[modaddy]

How do you all tend to play this situation if the turn makes a a 3-flush instead?

[Crosby]

I would shove on the flop. People who limp AJo or even Axs and call a raise normally don't fold here. The problem with waiting until the turn to raise is you can't fold if the flush hits on the turn. With a larger stack your play would make more sense to me, but here I'd be willing to gamble with a flush draw on the flop.