Help me get out of this hand

[bobman0330]

3/6 Stud on Party. Villain is a total nutcase. Raises and reraises without any rhyme or reason. On two separate occasions he's check-raised me on a late street with less than a medium pair. Moron 1 and Moron 2 I don't have a read on, but they appear to suck.

3rd:
Moron 1: 5
Moron 2: 2
Hero (Maybe Moron 3?): (Ac Ts) As
Villain: J

Moron 2 opens, I complete, Villain raises, both morons call, i 3-bet, Villain caps, called around.

4th
M1: 54
M2: 2J (I like this)
H: (Ac Ts) As xs
V: JK
I bet, villain raises, morons call, i 3-bet, villain caps, called around.
On this street, i might have been overly aggressive, but it was hard to put villain on rolled up Js with the other J dead, and hard to be afraid of the two morons in the hand who had just been calling.

5th street:
M1: 548
M2: 2Jx
H: (Ac Ts) As xs Qs (maybe some outs developing?)
V: JKJ
Villain bets. The 5 springs to life and raises. At this point, I'll confess that I became a little tilted, both by the raise from the 5, who is almost certainly board-locked, and by all those raises from V on 3rd, when he had to be behind. I call, V and M1 cap it, I call

6th:
M1: 5487
M2: 2Jxx
H: (Ac Ts) As xs Qs xd
V: JKJx

V bets, M1 raises, M2 and I call, V 3-bets, called around

River, i catch my flush. M1 finds his courage and gets into another raising war, I call my last $3.50.

Showdown in white:
<font color="white">
M1: rolled up 5s, unimproved
M2: rolled up 2s, unimproved
V: (KK)JKJxx(x) takes almost $350 pot
H: spades </font>

At what point do I get off this nightmare train? I suppose 5th street is the most likely choice, but, at that point, there are 4 considerations:
1) I'm slightly off my game from both a bad session and the 3rd street shennanigans from this guy i dislike.
2) the pot is already over $100.
3) I know for sure that I'm drawing to beat M1 and M2, and it's very hard to put V on a full house, since he has M1 and M2 board-locked with as "little" as trip Js, and me backing off suggests that I don't have 3 As.
4) Since it's so obvious that V is ahead, I anticipate the remainder of the hand being cheap, unless someone makes another board pair, at which point i can get out.

I have a sneaking suspicion that none of these 4 considerations really suffices, but I have another question:
Assuming I should fold on 5th, should i fold because i think/fear that V has a full house already, or because I don't want to play against 3 sets of trips. Against just trip Js, trip 5s, and trip 2s, 2dimes gives me .16 equity. With the size of the pot, and the fact that it's 4-handed, and my possible trips outs, it's not easy to fold.

Another question I have, is how the hell am I supposed to read people like V? By 5th, i know he didn't start rolled, so what should I credit him with? I assumed split jacks, but the only hand that makes any real sense is (AA)J, which he's playing rather aggressively. If I can't put him on a hand with any certainty, should i incline towards giving him credit here or not?

Sorry for the long post, but I'm new to the game and have a lot of questions. Please help prevent this from happening to me ever again!

[NYCBIZ]

Really interesting hand, and certainly one that I wouldn't want to be involved with either! I'm fairly new to the game as well, but I do have some comments:

-I would have assumed split Jacks for the Villain as well, but on Fourth St., I would have put him on two pair (Kings and Jacks), because he capped it. I didn't see any other Kings on the board, so they are still live. And, but the way M1 and M2 were betting, a K in the hold probably wouldn't have helped them, so you should be able to assume they didn't have a K in the hole.

And, since Villain knows that you know one of his Jacks is dead, his continued betting and cap really signals (to me anyways) another K in the hole.

-Also, on Fifth St. I would have given M1 credit for the straight. I would have put him on 5, 6, 7 as opposed to rolled up (nonetheless your outs to a flush would beat an 8-high straight). I don't know why the Morons would have only called their rolled trips up on Third St. and not reraised. No reason for them to be not raising that hand knowing that Villain would gladly accept the action.

-The pot is too large to get out unless you are certain you are beaten (and certain that you are drawing dead as well). If lots of spades are still live (I don't know the suits of the cards of M1, M2, and V), then you should still be in the hand.

-Perhaps his continued raising is more aggressive than usual, but if Villain check-raises with less than a medium pair late in the game, then over time, you'll take money from him. Hands like this are bound to happen once in a while, and in this case a tough break, but since you feel you "went on tilt" starting a Fifth St., then this loss probably feels worse than it really was.

[BeerMoney]

Oh my God!! What a hand. You got in the middle of a sticky situation, and it probably won't happen again. Most people lose a lot of money in this scenario. The funny thing is, the worst hand won! 2 other people lost a boat load of money, and they both had a hand better than yours.

$360 pot is HUGE.

[MRBAA]

I don't keep going on fourth -- that king is a scare card for trips, although since the guy is a nut, who knows. But with three opponents, just aces isn't enough to keep pounding. On fifth, when you catch a four flush, you're in to the end. V didn't have to start with a pair or have a third jack. Sometimes when the pot gets big you just have to ride the train. Your A-high flush will win here often enough to make it profitable, I think.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Leaving out the suits and the other up cards makes it harder to figure out the hands.

As others have stated, with a reasonable player your beat on 5th. Against a maniac you have to just hold on.

I find in pots this large, FH are usually the winners, not the draws unless the trips miss, but its hard to fold.

Later,
MarkV.

[timmer]

its hard to fold a big multi way draw against a paired board but with big action sometimes you just have too.

sometimes you would rather not make the pot so big right off. especially on 4th pretty decent redraws though.

Im not so sure this is one of those time though.

tough break to lose the maximum.

timmer

[Andy B]

I haven't read the other responses or the results, and I didn't finish your post, for that matter....I don't see any point at which you should fold. It is apparent that 548 has made a straight or perhaps trips, on fifth street. By that time, of course, you have an Ace-high flush draw, so you can't go anywhere. I think capping on the first two rounds was fine, but it does commit you to the pot. If you had had only the Aces and no draw, you would have to fold fifth. As it is, if your hand was reasonably live, folding would have been disastrous with all that money in there.

[Andy B]

I don't understand why you're calling the other guys morons. And even the biggest maniacs get real hands once in a while. Sometimes, you just have to lose some money.

[Nick_Foxx]

haven't read the other responses yet, but this is a fascinating hand... just on a first look, i think 5th street is where you need to give up... when moron #1 "comes alive" i wouldn't put him on rolled up 5s, i would assume he started (67)5 [never raised on 3rd but kept calling, so a 3-straight is a definite possibility] and has just completed his straight... villian i would have to put on at least trip Js or trip Ks at this point... the last thing i want to do is chase a flush when i know i will be jammed in between someone trying to fill up and someone with a made hand...

the problem is your hand looks a lot better than it actually is... believe me, if i were in your situation and had put in that many bets, i mighta made all those crying calls as well... it's hard to let go... and i would definitely continue playing if I WERE IN LAST POSITION AND KNEW I WAS NOT GONNA BE RAISED... based on what has happened already, you are going to be jammed in, so give it up

mike

[Al Mirpuri]

I have read all the responses.

Bottom Line: You knew you were losing but did not drop, not usually so bad in seven card stud, but you are beat in at least two spots by your own instantaneous reckoning. Not only that but you are drawing to a hand that may not win even if, I repeat, even if, you make it.

You should have let it go. However, do not feel bad for in the heat of battle many mistakes are made.

[patrick dicaprio]

ouch. you cant always get away from a hand, and at no point would i have folded if i were you. too bad it was a big loss.

Pat