Top 10? Top 5? Top3? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

adios

12-03-2004, 08:37 AM

Cavs are 1 game out of first in their division.

LeBron stats this year

PPG = 25.5 (4th best in the league)

Rebounds = 7.5 a game

Assists = 6.1 a game

Steals = 2.4 a game

Blocks = 1.1 a game

Lets look at Kobe

PPG = 27.8

Assists = 6.6 per game

Rebounds = 6.6 per game

Steals = 1.3 per game

Blocks = 1.4 per game

Looks like Kobe and LeBron have very similar stats so how good is Kobe? Oh yeah and the Cavs have a better record than the Lakers so far. Of course it's early in the season.

Duke

12-03-2004, 08:50 AM

I disagree with both Shaq and Duncan. Shaq is unable to make a team win without heavy support. Duncan never impressed me. I'd rate him somewhere around Yao Ming. He cannot create. This is not to say that he's not one of the best in the league, which he is. Guys that can will a team to victory and make everyone else far better than they normally would be get my votes.

But it's definitely all opinion - I see where you're coming from with those guys, but I happen to favor other aspects of a game over what they bring to the table.

~D

Schneids

12-03-2004, 08:58 AM

I think perhaps a better question is where do Amare Stoudemire, Ray Allen, and Dwyane Wade fit in the picture; or to a lesser extent Antawn Jamison (who has the Bullets very much rekindled this season) and Dirk Nowitzki (who I would say is clearly top 5 even though he gets overshadowed by KG and TD)?

Schneids

12-03-2004, 09:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see a list of players better than LeBron that includes people other than Kobe and KG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Duncan and Dirk right now but maybe not a year or two from now. Big men are too important.

I think you could make a case for Wade and Stoudemire. Wade is not nearly as flashy but he is well-rounded and generally clutch; Stoudemire is clearly turning into the next Karl Malone of the league although it remains to be seen if that'll ever transpire into a championship.

I know the P-word always gets thrown around and supposedly Lebron has more potential than any of the aforementioned. Presently though, I don't think he has anything on any of the above, as far as what he brings to the court both individually and for the team effort.

Obviously if I was starting a team from scratch I would chose Lebron over any of these guys.

Schneids

12-03-2004, 09:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Some would argue Tmac but I wouldn't be one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

TMac is a wishy-washy bum who's yet to strike a balance between team play and individual play. Until he ever wins anything I can't even consider him top 10. More proof is supplied by the Rockets woeful start this season.

Rick Diesel

12-03-2004, 10:28 AM

In my mind, without a doubt, Lebron is the third best player in the league right now. My top five goes:
1. K.G.
2. Duncan
3. Lebron
4. Kobe
5. Artest

I watch a lot of NBA, I coach high school, and I played D1 college ball against quite a few players now in the league, so I do have a decent idea of skill level.

Anyone who commented that Lebron is not in the top three has not watched him play this year. He is sooooooo much better than he was last year. He completely dominates every game that he plays. It is ridiculous the way he makes everyone on his team better.

Just think, the second best player on the Cavs is Jeff McInnis! That's the same Jeff McInnis that barely got any NBA attention when he graduated from North Carolina. Lebron has turned Zydrunas Ilgauskas (sp?) into a 40-year old all star.

Look at Drew Gooden. A decent player coming out of college, but raised his field goal % from 44% last year to 47% this year. Lebron gets his teammates the ball where they can score. Gooden is averaging the same 11.5 points per game as last year, but is doing it taking 1.5 less shots per game.

Do you know who the fifth starter on the Cavs is? Ira Newble. Thats right, I said Ira Newble!

Lebron is averaging 25.0 points per game this year, and is shooting 50% from the field. Do you know how difficult it is for a 2 guard to shoot that well?

Flame away

Rick Diesel

ThaSaltCracka

12-03-2004, 11:52 AM

Dirk?

BeerMoney

12-03-2004, 11:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dirk?

[/ QUOTE ]

Diggler

ThaSaltCracka

12-03-2004, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dirk?

[/ QUOTE ]

Diggler

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I know who he meant, but does he consider Dirk in the top 5 players in the league? I don't care if he scores a lot of points, he is def not in the top 5.

Rick Diesel

12-03-2004, 12:12 PM

i agree with TSC here. To be listed this high, you have to have the ability to at least stop one player in the league from scoring. Dirk is probably the second worst defensive player in the NBA (only decent players considered here) with only his former teammate Steve Nash ahead of him.

He is also the worst rebounding 7-footer in the league. Somehow he manages to grab 9 boards a game, due mostly to the fact that he plays 40+ minutes and the Mavs have no other rebounders except Dampier.

And he plays soft as hell.

R.D.

ThaSaltCracka

12-03-2004, 12:20 PM

I think Gasol may be worse at rebounding. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

My top 5 in no particular order:
Kobe
Labron
Duncan
KG
Amare

on the cusp:
Shaq
D. Wade
E. Brand
Artest
AK-47
Ray Allen

Just wanted to add, the top 5 is obvious, after that, there are a lot of players around the same skill level, so basically 6-10 could be a wide array of people.

Victor

12-03-2004, 12:51 PM

Very good analysis Rick.

You really need to watch him play to realize how good he is. Sure, he has good stats, but watching him play it is apparent how he makes his entire team better. His shooting percentage is a good indication of this. Rarely, does he take bad shots and force the action at the expensive of his teamates. Tmac and Kobe are notorious for this. Thats why their shooting percentage is lower and their teams have less wins.

Lebron does, however, need to learn when and how to take over a game. He disappears down the stretch sometimes when he should be more selfish.

Schneids

12-03-2004, 01:00 PM

Dirk's defense could very well be a function of his coach.

ThaSaltCracka

12-03-2004, 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dirk's defense could very well be a function of his coach.

[/ QUOTE ]I think its more likely a result of the style of basketball he learned growing up in Europe. Peja has no D either.

Ian J

12-03-2004, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My top five goes:
5. Artest

[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking right?

[ QUOTE ]

Just think, the second best player on the Cavs is Jeff McInnis!

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no.

[ QUOTE ]

Lebron has turned Zydrunas Ilgauskas (sp?) into a 40-year old all star.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's 30, and the 2nd best player on the Cavs. Hell, he's a rarity, a legitimate big man.

You are right about Lebron however. He is absolutely amazing. I voted top 10, but I'm convinced I'm wrong. He's top 5 right now no doubt. The way he takes over a game and keeps his teammates involved is unmatched in the NBA. He's Magic Johnson with slightly less passing ability and way more scoring and athleticism. We'll just have to wait and see if he has that thing that Magic had that led his team to so many championships. Where's Kareem when Lebron needs him?

ThaSaltCracka

12-03-2004, 01:31 PM

dude, whether or not you hate him, Artest is [censored] good at basketball. He was easily the best player on the Pacers, easily.

Ian J

12-03-2004, 01:47 PM

Oh, I don't really hate him that much. It's all objective here. He's simply not one of the top 5 basketball players in the NBA. That's all my comment meant. I could care less about the antics.

Aces McGee

12-03-2004, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
meh... I think even top 10 is generous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Outrageous. I won't go into the reasons why because there are a lot of posters who already have, but I'd LOVE to see a list of ten players better than LeBron.

-McGee

ThaSaltCracka

12-03-2004, 01:55 PM

fair enough, I think his offensive skills, coupled with his very impresive D, makes him easily one of the best overall players in the league. If he was more stable mentally, he would be a viable MVP candidate(assuming he was actually playing).

bugstud

12-03-2004, 01:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dude, whether or not you hate him, Artest is [censored] good at basketball. He was easily the best player on the Pacers, easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

I maintain that Kirilenko is a better defender than artest

ThaSaltCracka

12-03-2004, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that Kirilenko is a better defender than artest

[/ QUOTE ] Thats possible. AK-47 is sick man.

WEASEL45

12-03-2004, 02:13 PM

do you watch basketball?

Rick Diesel

12-03-2004, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that Kirilenko is a better defender than artest

[/ QUOTE ]

I could see this one going either way, as they are completely different kinds of defensive players. Artest is the guy that you want to just lock someone down. AK is the best off-the-ball defender in the league.

The reason that I prefer Artest, is that he can legitimately guard the 1 thru 3 spots against any team. AK can guard the 3 and 4. Once again, a completely different style of defense.

And Artest is a better offensive player.

WEASEL45

12-03-2004, 02:19 PM

Yao is way worse at rebounding then dirk and Yao is 5 inches taller.

WEASEL45

12-03-2004, 02:20 PM

dirks defense has gotten a lot better this season.

WEASEL45

12-03-2004, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah and the Cavs have a better record than the Lakers so far

[/ QUOTE ]
the cavs play in the east

Rick Diesel

12-03-2004, 02:23 PM

1. No i am not joking about Artest. He is the best defensive guard in the NBA, and can guard any point guard, shooting guard, or small forward without hesitation. He is also highly underrated as an offensive player. When the Pacers needed crunch time buckets in the playoffs last year, Artest was the one getting the ball, not Jermaine O'Neal. He may be a d***, but he can still play ball.

2. McInnis is the second best player on the Cavs. Ilgauskus is big, slow, and only scores by getting wide open 8-10 foot jump shots. He never tries to post up. McInnis has extended opponents defenses by knocking down the open three, which has opened up the lane for Lebron, ZI, and Gooden. McInnis also took the point duties away from Lebron, which has made him much more effective. Ilgauskus is nothing better than a poor man's Rik Smits.

R.D.

Rick Diesel

12-03-2004, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

My top 5 in no particular order:
Kobe
Labron
Duncan
KG
Amare

Just wanted to add, the top 5 is obvious

[/ QUOTE ]

I will disagree with you here. There is no way, at this point I put Amare even close to the top five. He is extremely athletic, but when was the last time he scored without dunking. If you get a team that can take away the transition game from the Suns, he would not nearly be as good in a half court set. I just think at the current time, he does not have the complete game to be listed amongst the top five in the game.

On another note, I completely agree with all of the posters that are talking about Kirilenko. He is certainly the real deal, one of a very few amount of foreigners that are not afraid to mix it up. Give him about two more years to develop his offensive game, and he will be in the top five.

R.D.

Rick Diesel

12-03-2004, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yao is way worse at rebounding then dirk and Yao is 5 inches taller.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken. Good call.

ThaSaltCracka

12-03-2004, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I will disagree with you here. There is no way, at this point I put Amare even close to the top five.

[/ QUOTE ]Going into this season, I would have agreed with this, but this year(thus far) he has been dominate, and easily the best player on a very good Suns team. He gets my nod right now. One player I just realize everyone is forgeting is AI, maybe I should put Amare/AI on that top 5, either one will do.

Aces McGee

12-03-2004, 02:43 PM

Artest is clearly the best lockdown guy, but the reason I'd rather build my D around Kirilenko is that he makes up for defensive deficiencies on the rest of the team. Of course, it's not Artest's fault that he's not tall enough to be a prolific shotblocker, but AK-47 gets the edge in my book because he essentially is guarding everyone on the court.

-McGee

J_V

12-03-2004, 03:30 PM

I like what you are saying Duke. But Duncan so much better than Yao it's a joke. Duncan is almost impossible to guard, and can create. You can't get 25+ a game w/o being able to get a shot if you want it.

Yao is hideous.

Schneids

12-03-2004, 04:00 PM

Not intended to change subjects but:

KG's versatility is far beyond Kirilenko. I still remember when he was manned up against MJ many years ago and MJ tried to take it to the hole against KG... and got stuffed. Even a few weeks ago KG was manned up against Ray Allen for a stretch. That's a 7' guy covering a mega-athletic point guard. And then we haven't even gotten into how excellent his help defense is and how much stronger D the Wolves play with KG on the court.

IMO KG and Lebron are the two NBA players my generation (well...and Shaq) will tell our grandkids about having seen come of age.

Aces McGee

12-03-2004, 04:09 PM

KG's freak length and athletic ability allow him to guard a wider range of players one-on-one, this is true. However, I still contend that Kirilenko is a better help defender. Last year, he blocked nearly a shot more per game than KG, while averaging half a steal more, as well -- this despite being two inches shorter and measurably less long.

-McGee