Raising vs Limping with AK & similar hands

[LockLow34]

Was re-reading HEPFAP last night and came across the section where Sklansky says that preflop raising isn't necessarily good because by making the pot big, you give chasers the correct odds to draw to gutshots, backdoor flushes and the like. While you want them to chase (profit) you don't want them to have the correct odds for doing so, so limping is better than raising preflop.

Now isn't raising preflop with hands like AKo and the like a +EV move, since you likely hold the best hand and are winning a larger percentage of the pot so you want more money IN that pot you're a favorite to win?

To me this looks like a conflict. However, I'm sure the decision to raise vs. limp is situationally dependent. My question is what criteria differentiates these situations? Is it # of players in the hand? Position? Type of table? Something else?

(I'm still learning, so if I've gotten some or all of this wrong, feel free to correct me.)

[Rudbaeck]

I think the common opinion on this matter has changed since the last edition of HPFAP.

[senjitsu]

A lot of the answer here depends on the game. In a game typical of the kind of game HEFAP assumes -- that is to say, one in which players will fold postflop if they are not getting the correct pot odds for a call.

In a typical small to mid stakes game, where people will draw regardless, you are better off raising for equity (miller discusses this in SSHE).


jc



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Was re-reading HEPFAP last night and came across the section where Sklansky says that preflop raising isn't necessarily good because by making the pot big, you give chasers the correct odds to draw to gutshots, backdoor flushes and the like. While you want them to chase (profit) you don't want them to have the correct odds for doing so, so limping is better than raising preflop.

Now isn't raising preflop with hands like AKo and the like a +EV move, since you likely hold the best hand and are winning a larger percentage of the pot so you want more money IN that pot you're a favorite to win?

To me this looks like a conflict. However, I'm sure the decision to raise vs. limp is situationally dependent. My question is what criteria differentiates these situations? Is it # of players in the hand? Position? Type of table? Something else?

(I'm still learning, so if I've gotten some or all of this wrong, feel free to correct me.)

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[crimhead]

Not raising with AK in a typical-tough game (As is implied in Hold 'em Poker For Advanced Players first two cards section) is something you do when your early position raises are getting to much respect. This is a gambit done entirely for purposes of deception.

Flat calling good hands in a loose game is also a gambit, but not motivated by deception. Here you are trying to manipulate the size of the pot such that skill counts for more on the later rounds. NEVER do this with a hand as strong as AK. Make this limp with AQo, usually in an early seat only. Make this play from a middle seat (with callers already) with a hand like AJo.

Again, to make this kind of limp:

- Be sure the game is very loose.
- Never do this with a hand as strong as AJs, AQs, or AKo.
- Don't do this from a middle seat if there are no callers.


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I think the common opinion on this matter has changed since the last edition of HPFAP.

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I'm not sure about AK in tough games (I only limp with these for a limp-reraise, or sometimes if they're suited and the game is tight), but the Ace-Queen's gambit type play is still advocated in loose low-limit games as far as I understand.

[Rudbaeck]

I don't get it. It makes less sense to not raise AKo in a tough game than it does in a weak game. That you are giving bad players the odds to chase in a tough game is not a very strong reason not to raise AKo, as there are pretty few chasers left at the higher end of poker. (Or so I assume.) And HPFAP and basically everyone else I've read recommends that you play hands fast for deception, not slowplay big hands preflop. So if you are getting too much respect on your EP raises you toss in T9s once in a while.

Keeping the pot small to make chasers make mistakes would be more sensible in a low limit game against calling stations. But your pot equity is so high against these morons that a raise is still always in order.

[Senor Choppy]

Certain hands are so dominant preflop (like AK) that putting in more money is clearly correct even if you hurt yourself slightly postflop. With other hands, it's more open to debate (like ATo).

Ideally you would like to keep the pot small so you magnify your opponents errors postflop while at the same time forcing them to put as much money in preflop with inferiors hands. It's a balancing act, for sure.

[bernie]

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Not raising with AK in a typical-tough game (As is implied in Hold 'em Poker For Advanced Players first two cards section) is something you do when your early position raises are getting to much respect. This is a gambit done entirely for purposes of deception.


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Not exactly. You know how you counter too much respect? You raise more hands preflop, not limp. Which also takes care of deception.

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but the Ace-Queen's gambit type play is still advocated in loose low-limit games as far as I understand.

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Raise it.

b

[bernie]

This is more for tougher games with opponents who think at least a little bit. Not for loose LL games.

For a great explanation, search out a thread that involved John Feeney. I think there were 2, actually. It explains pretty well where to use this concept.

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My question is what criteria differentiates these situations? Is it # of players in the hand? Position? Type of table? Something else?


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Yes.

b