Trying to be more aggressive....How did I do?

[Hallett]

UTG+2 and MP1 are both loose aggressive passive. UTG+2 sees 37% of the flops, and MP1 sees 68%. They both cold-call freely. I have only 14 hands on UTG+2, and 30 on MP1, so these reads don't mean much. I am looking for coments on my my aggression, particularly the turn and river bets. Thanks!!

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (11 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (13 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19 BB, between Hero, UTG+2 and MP1.</font>

No results for now.....

[Avatar]

Well UTG+2 obviously has you beat on the river. I don't know what you could do different in the hand though.

But I don't understand what Loose aggressive passive is.

[zram21]

Nice hand.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
But I don't understand what Loose aggressive passive is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming he's referring to bison's autorate rules on Pokertracker. LA-P = Loose Agressive preflop, Passive post-flop.

[Hallett]

Loose Agressive passive: Preflop they are both Loose-Agressive, post flop they are both passive. This is sometimes abbreviated to LA-P.

I agree I am surely beat on the river, and in fact perhaps should even fold. I am putting the last bet in (calling the raise) so before my call, it is 18BB. I don't think I am good here 1 in 18 times, these guys just aren't that bad. As well, they are passive, so one could easily have the flush. In fact, I am certain one has a flush, and the other has a Q. The more I think, the more I should fold to the raise on the river.

[zram21]

Folding for one more bet closing the action would have been awful.

[eh923]

The aggression was good on the flop and turn...but why bet the river? What were you hoping to achieve? Did you think about that before betting?

Also, this belongs in Micro-limits, not Small Stakes. And in either ML or SS, you WILL BE good at least 1 in 18 times.

[Hallett]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding for one more bet closing the action would have been awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awful? I am of two minds. The pot is indeed large, and it is pretty easy to just throw in one more BB. This is indeed what I did in the hand. However, on reflection, the logic side of my head says:

You have to put up 1BB to win 18. That is 18-1. Do I honesly think I have an 18-1 chance of picking up the pot? If it was heads up, I would call, even if I knew I was beat, so I could see the cards. With a raiser and a cold-caller I don't think I am going to win.

[zram21]

[ QUOTE ]
The aggression was good on the flop and turn...but why bet the river? What were you hoping to achieve? Did you think about that before betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

The river bet was an easy value bet. When both opponents just called the turn bet there is no reason to think you are behind and the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif almost certainly didn't change the hand. The opponents could have been on a flush or straght draw or even just middle or bottom pair.

Betting the river here is automatic.

[Hallett]

[ QUOTE ]
snip.....but why bet the river? What were you hoping to achieve? Did you think about that before betting?
....snip

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, I did not give the river bet enough thought. If I check-call, it would be much better. Thanks!

Sorry about the forum, I usually play 2/4 and didn't even notice this was .50/1.00

[zram21]

MP1's cold call wouldn't worry me. He has been calling along the whole time. He may be holding a J and a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and just didn;t want to let it go. It's possible that he has a weak flush and has been happy to just call along with it. Do I think he has hand that he would CC with on the river that you still beat 1 out of 19 times? Absolutely.

And it sure seems likely that UTG+1 has you beat, but again I think it is reasonable to think your hand will hold up th 5% of the time it requires to be profitable. Perhaps calling the fold awful is a bit strong, but I don't think it is correct.

[zram21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
snip.....but why bet the river? What were you hoping to achieve? Did you think about that before betting?
....snip

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, I did not give the river bet enough thought. If I check-call, it would be much better. Thanks!

Sorry about the forum, I usually play 2/4 and didn't even notice this was .50/1.00

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. You can't be looking to improve your agression by check calling a blank on the river on a very draw heavy board. The river bet was an easy one.

[Hallett]

Here are the results:

UTG+2 shows [ Qc, Ah ] three of a kind, queens.
MP1 shows [ 6d, 2d ] a flush, queen high.
Hero doesn't show [ Ad, Ac ] two pairs, aces and queens.
MP1 wins $18.25 from the main pot with a flush, queen high.

My thoughts after discussing with you guys:

I think the river bet is ok....the turn did not get raised, (it should have been, UTG+2 should protect his hand, plus he has outs to the nuts) and these guys could indeed have anything. I think I have to call the raise on the river, due to the size of the pot.

Thanks!

[Hallett]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
snip.....but why bet the river? What were you hoping to achieve? Did you think about that before betting?
....snip

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, I did not give the river bet enough thought. If I check-call, it would be much better. Thanks!

Sorry about the forum, I usually play 2/4 and didn't even notice this was .50/1.00

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. You can't be looking to improve your agression by check calling a blank on the river on a very draw heavy board. The river bet was an easy one.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, your last reply changed my mind, but I posted the check-call thingie before I read your reply. I would rather be aggressive here, and should bet, and call the raise.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
The more I think, the more I should fold to the raise on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO.

[eh923]

I'd still be interested in hearing HIS thought process for this (although your comments are welcome too). /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You're right that the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif probably didn't impact the final standings. In which case, there are two scenarios.
1. The other opponents were drawing (and missed).
2. Our Hero was toast on the turn, and UTG+2 was trying to keep people player 3 in the hand. (You did remember that UTG+2 raised the flop, right?)

In the first case, the chance of getting a call and still winning is very slight. There's the possibility that UTG+2 has K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifKx. Also, someone with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJx would probably call...but not too many other hands will please our hero. In the second case, a raise is coming.

The chance of getting a call from a worse hand is far less than the combined chances of worse hands folding and getting popped on the river by a made flush or (more likely) JJ, AQ, or KQ. He's better off checking and calling.

[eh923]

You're killing me, Hallett! Check out my response to zram then consider both sides.

[zram21]

I think you are thinking too much like how you would play the hand if you were the opponent rather than how a common .5/1 opponent is likely to play the hand. Other hands UTG+2 might have that s/he might have called one more beth with and raised on the flop include J5, Jx (if one of the cards was a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif), TT (especially if one of the T's was a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif), AxK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and the list could include even more. And with MP1 calling along the whole time he could have an even bigger range of hands (any pocket pair as one example).

A better read on exactly how passive UTG+2 is post flop might make this a bit easier, but for a typical .5/1 player seeing almost 40% of the flops those are all reasonable hands to put villan on. When there was no resistance on the turn the river bet was the right line.

[Hallett]

[ QUOTE ]
You're killing me, Hallett! Check out my response to zram then consider both sides.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are killing me! I wonder how many times I will change my mind before this thread is done....He posts faster than you, so he changes my mind quicker.

I think the reason I posted this hand is because I see two ways to go. This time I went with bet-call, which has some merit. I can see the case for check-call, and there is even a case (though much weaker) for bet-fold.

This type of hand causes me trouble, here is another example:

**Deleted** Don't want to cloud this hand with another....

[eh923]

I admit, I can be guilty of putting myself in someone else's shoes despite scolding other people for doing just that! Perhaps I need to go down a couple of levels to get back in touch with the people.

In this hand though, I saw a lot of things that seem familiar from my micro days...bad cold calls PF...not playing flopped flushes fast enough...slowplaying trips til the river. In the end, the board was rotten enough that I still doubt a bet was +EV. Folding for one bet (either after checking or after getting raised) would be insane though.

In case it matters, I NEVER think the pot is "big enough", and I bet the river more often than most. This situation just felt bad!