T8s on the button

[Trix]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

BB: Tightish and very aggro.
MP:very loose and probably passive.


Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, MP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP calls, Hero folds.

Can I fold here ?

[Fiddler]

Excuse the newbie. /images/graemlins/smile.gif UTG is aggressive and could be betting a draw or missed overcards and MP is loose passive... hasn't the turn made it more likely that your hand is good? Did you only call the flop because the pot size is enough to draw for a ten/eight?

[PokerNoob]

I would fold preflop. The flop, I'm ahead of AQ, AJ and maybe others if he despises limpers. MP seems to be numbly holding on. Flush draw? If you raise the turn, will overcards believe you have a king and fold? You may still have to dodge a lot of river cards if they both call. However, this will be your last chance to get money in the pot if you are ahead.

[Grisgra]

I think I'd raise the turn here for the fun of it. You might well be ahead, you might get overcards to fold, hell, maybe you'll get 99 or TT to fold. (Okay, probably not.)

[Joe826]

i think i like a turn raise here too. you're not likely to get 3-bet unless you're beat badly so you can fold easily if that happens. if called in one or more spots, i'm checking behind on the river. had the top card not paired i'd be more apt to fold here.

[wheelz]

Once the king falls, I'm at least calling.

I like maybe raising the turn too, for the reasons stated above. Possible free showdown, can easily fold if 3-bet.

[Rostioff]

The obvious answer already stated by PokerNoob would be to have folded preflop. Your hand has a negative EV in this situation.

Once in the hand the decision is tough. Based on your read of the big blind you might be ahead of him, since players of that type will be very likely to continue to bet overcards or even a pocket pair below eights. Of your options, calling is the worst, raising slightly better and folding preferable. If your hand is good, you're dodging a lot of river cards; any diamond or spade is bad, as well as any overcard. If you're beat, you're drawing dead to a king, drawing to two outs against a pocket pair greater than 8s, and drawing slim to a better eight. In short, you have NO pure outs.

A better understanding of the BBs raising standards and how passive/station-like the MP is would be necessary to make a better analysis. This lack of information merely illustrates how bad a decision it was to play the hand to begin with. One of the largest leaks common to short handed players is over-valuing small suited hands without sufficient opponents and odds.

Good luck in the future.

[joker122]

like others have said i think you should raise the turn and take a free showdown. what i think the others didn't mention is that raising could get him to fold AA-99 since you describe him as TAG and you probably have a TAG image yourself.

[helpmeout]

Definately fold preflop.

I dont really like the turn fold but MPs smooth call is pretty scary (probably passive isnt much of a read lol).

MP may have a flush draw and BB may have overcards or a PP. I like the turn raise/free showdown, you may get a better 8 to fold or a higher PP although I doubt it.

[Trix]

You dont think this is +EV on the button after 2 limpers ?

[Danenania]

I think it is easily +EV. No numbers or anything to back it up, that's just the general impression I get based on my poker knowledge (which comes mostly from these forums).

[Danenania]

Also I like raising the turn with plans of folding to a 3-bet and taking a free showdown. Pot's too big to fold to the first turn bet and a raise might get hands with outs against you to fold if they think they're drawing dead.

Consider that from BB's perspective that turn is a great one for him to bet if he has something like AQ-A9. The top card pairing often scares people off. MP1 could have many hands so his overcall shouldn't concern you much. Folding here seems pretty bad although things could change if you have a very good idea of what BB's preflop raising standards might be in that situation (and they're passive).

[tylerg]

I did not read all the replys but I think id have folded preflop depending on bet size vs stack size and other peoples tendencies and stack size...however if i did call preflop id surely have folded on the flop and then you can avoid this problem...If you did call or raise on 4th st I think you might find yourself in aa lot of trouble if he had a Poket pair or an open set of kings...I would never risk many chips with a hand like this especially in this situation...

[naphand]

This is s limit game.

[helpmeout]

What are you hoping for with T8s? A flush? straight? 2pair?

Unless your opponents are really loose and who call down a lot you have poor implied odds for making a straight or a flush.

This hand frequently requires you to draw out on your opponents. Most situations you will end up headsup drawing to a flush, straight, bottom pair with a gutshot and you usually dont have the odds.

I'd only play this against extremely weak calling stations, an extra caller would be nice as well.

[Michael Davis]

Count me for raising the flop. I'd rather raise the flop here with your hand than with a K. I do this because otherwise I encourage the preflop raiser to fire again on the turn and I have no idea where I'm at. If I raise the flop, I usually figure out where I'm at on the turn, and often I figure that out when my opponents fold.

Plus, you will sometimes get hands like AJ/AQ to fold for one more bet. Sure, it's rare, but it does happen. What do you do when you have AQ on this board, one guy calls, and the last guy raises?

-Michael

[Schneids]

I'm with Michael and raising the flop for the exact reasons he states.

If BB is tight/agg I don't think he's gonna believe you if you raise when the 2nd king comes on the turn because he's going to wonder why you didn't raise your king on the flop. I don't think it's a too believable raise unless you're doing it for value...and since you have only called/called/called so far you really have no idea if it's for value.