Kill Pot: A B&M Story

[DesertCat]

Playing 6/12 in the B&M. Table is unusually tight-passive, with the exception of one young kid who has over a grand stacked in front of him. Or should I say, HAD a grand, I and others at the table have chipped away about a third of his stack in the last hour or so, so much he had to take a break. Before he took his break he played many hands, called down with any pair, and bluffed excessively post flop, betting underpairs and draws. Since his break, he's been on a rush, showing down pocket kings, and big slick in consecutive hands to start building his stack up again. In fact, his win with big slick triggers a kill pot.

I'm dealt QJo on the button. It's folded around to me so I raise. Strangely, the small blind calls. I find this strange because even though the she is in real life a poker dealer, she has been playing very tight. Mr. Fortress of Chips of course calls.

Six small (!?!) bets to the flop, which comes Queen high with a two and a four, two diamonds. It's checked to me and I bet, SB calls, and LAG checkraises. Hmm..., I start to get an uncomfortable feeling. I call, noticing that a surprisingly large amount of chips has now left my stack, making the pot 12 SB ($144). Turn is a ten offsuit. SB checks, LAG bets, I call, dealer calls. 9 BB ($216). River is a blank (7o). SB checks, LAG bets, SB gives every indication of throwing her hand away while she awaits my decision. Pot is $240, and it's $24 to call. I should...?

And how would you have played this hand differently?

[Mr. Amanti]

well for starters there is no reason to fold the river, i would deffinetly call here every time against someone so unpredictable like this player, just because he has been on a rush does not mean he is playing well

the one change i might suggest is riasing or check raising the turn when a blank hits, but you might not want to get into a battle of aggression with a maniac

but anyways deffinetly call the river

what hands are you worrried about? a better queen? some random 2 pair?

[kelvin474]

He is LAG and he called preflop. So he has 44 or 22? I can't imagine theres a chance he wouldn't 3-bet KQ or AQ or QQ-AA, right? Is he loose enough to play Q4/Q2? You have a bunch of outs against Q4/Q2 anyhow.

From your description it sounds like he could have a medium PP, the 44 or 22 of course, a worse or the same Queen, or raggy diamonds (could he have A3?)

If you can 3-bet the SB out of the way and get rid of like an overcard and a lone diamond, that would be useful too.

With what you did it looks like you got set up to either call down with a worse hand or get bluffed off a better hand by LAG if A or K flop.

I know we all do this :" I start to get an uncomfortable feeling. " alot, and of course I'm as guilty as any, but it looks to me standing far from where it happened and on my computer with none of my money at risk in this hand that that's voodoo. What is a LAG beating you with here?

[DesertCat]

I called, the pot was too big and clearly there wasn't going to be an overcall (the SB said she was a on a draw?). The LAG showed pocket rockets and I lost half my night's win in one hand.

Coming home I decided my mistake was not reraising on the flop to get some sense of his real strength (and to get the SB out). If he capped I could have folded the turn without improvement. That would have saved me 1BB ($24) at least.

Nice rush he was on. He claimed he didn't know he had aces preflop because he only checked one card (he was still busy stacking chips), hence no preflop reraise.

[Victor]

3bet the flop.

you just said he makes all kinds of crazy plays with less than a strong hand. get the tight sb outta there.

i mean seriously, you go into an in depth analysis of how he is the definition of a lag and borderline maniac on a rush no less and you start getting scared of a strong hand.

now, i know you lost this hand. otherwise you wouldnt post it. but trust me, i would have lost at least 1 more bb than you in this particular situation. but in an infinite amount of this situation i will win much more than you the way you played it.

[willie24]

i actually think you played this perfectly. i would've been scared of the SB, and so, would not have wanted to get into a raising war with the LAG. i would have folded at the first sign of aggression from the SB. its hard to fold what you had to the LAG though, as he could suspect you of blind stealing, and be playing back at you with god-knows what. (if he is the kind of lag who bets out a lot but will not raise without the goods, this changes)

bottom line is, the pot is big. even if you are behind you are probably right to draw to the river. i think, when you consider the lagginess of your opponent, you absolutely must call the river.

reraising on the flop wouldn't've helped. it just would have got you more pot-committed.

after you are reraised on the flop you have to realize that you're not going to win this pot most of the time. you will win it enough though, where it is wrong to fold.

don't worry about it

[willie24]

[ QUOTE ]
get the tight sb outta there

[/ QUOTE ]

if the SB is on a draw, she's probably not leaving. If she's not on a draw, she probably has you beat (or will simply fold to the 1 bet reraise). you could raise to make her pay if you really think you are more than 1/3 to win the pot, but i doubt you are. therefore, there's no reason to get everyone to put in 1 more bet here on the flop. you do have good enough pot odds to call though.

[willie24]

remember you have to take into account the very-likely possibility that YOU are drawing here. if you knew that SB had A4 and that she would fold A4 to your raise, it is probably right to raise. but she probably doesn't have A4. if she has diamonds, or qk or 22 or 66 or 77 you definitely do not want to raise here. raising comes at a steep cost: more bets to see the showdown.

if you absolutely know she has diamonds - (say she told you), then it'd probably be right to call the flop and raise the turn, assuming that you think you have a fair chance against the LAG. (i haven't done the math, but my guess is that you'd have to be about 30% against the lag for the raise to be worthwhile.

[kelvin474]

1. He was not re-raised on the flop. The BB checkraised.

2. I think most of the time your going to want to be pumping this, Didn't we say the BB is a LAG who bets underpairs and draws alot? Why can't he have diamonds or 55-88 or something? You want to pot-commit this SOB with his 2-or 3 outer (3 outs for like Q9 or QT). If he has a flush draw, its probably not with AK (only 2-overcard hand there is) or KQs or AQs since those are all 3-bets preflop. You want to jam this guy.

3. I feel like yuou and the 'Cat are focused on the results and the "bad feeling". The 'Cat was there, maybe he had a read. But your telling me you don't 3-bet with top pair and a kicker that beats or ties all the non-PF-3-betting Q's in this spot? Get the SB's outs out of there and try to get headsup against a guy you almost certainly have drawing to either 2 or 3 outs, or have big equity against his flush draw.

If BB capped the flop then I would call that a flush draw, a Q with a craptastic kicker or a lucky 44/22. Most of those combos are some kind of flushdraw (who knows with this character, maybe any 2 or fewer gapper less than KQs i would guess?) You'd be getting like 4.5:1 effective odds to calldown if the flop gets capped. You could consider folding to the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn maybe, but i'd say against a big LAG i'm probably calling down virtually regardless and finding out what crazy crap he's doing this time expecting to beat a busted flush draw or frisky weaker Q enough to justify the play.

[kelvin474]

how can you fold top pair and a decent kicker on the turn to a guy who is so laggy if the 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif hits? Why can't he have QT or some crap like T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif:9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? Can't he cap the flop with top pair or a flushdraw just because he thinks its fun and his hand is okay?

[HajiShirazu]

So let me get this straight.
You flop top pair on a rag board against a LAG, and you immediately shut down when checkraised, and you're thinking about folding? No way man. Get those 3-betting chips ready from now on. You just got unlucky here. Your hand is going to be good most of the time against this guy.

[bdk3clash]

I would 3-bet the flop and take it from there. Given your line, I'm not even going to dignify what you should do on the river with a response.

Are you comfortable playing $12/24?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

any talk of folding this river is ridiculous.

[Michael Davis]

You should have poured a lot more oil in this hand.

-Michael

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
Before he took his break he played many hands, called down with any pair, and bluffed excessively post flop, betting underpairs and draws. Since his break, he's been on a rush, showing down pocket kings, and big slick in consecutive hands to start building his stack up again.

[/ QUOTE ]

anyone can win two hands in a row with kings and AK, it DOESNT mean hes playing any better. even most morons can think "hey, that pots pretty big, id like to win it." this seems like the type of situation where this guy will try to make a move. id 3-bet the flop.

[aLOWdAkING]

10 to 1 odds on the river call, no way to fold this unless you are more than 90% sure you are beat.

[willie24]

you have a pair of queens with a Ten kicker. you have been check-raised and someone else has called 1 bet on the flop already. you have no flush or straight draws.

i don't care if your opponent is a LAG, you can only beat a bluff. furthermore, you can only beat that bluff if the SB is weaker than you.

there is a good chance that your opponent is bluffing. but do you really think its higher than about 50%? remember, he didn't just check raise you, he check-raised you AND one caller. also, do you really think the chances of the SB beating your by the showdown are lower than 30% or so?

if you do then go ahead and reraise the flop. for me to reraise I would have to consider my LAG opponent extremely aggressive and would have to consider my SB opponent quite loose-passive.

[pudley4]

Raise the turn.

You're up against a known bluffer. SB has done nothing but call, call, call. You have top pair, decent kicker. Perfect time to call the flop checkraise and then raise the turn bet.

PS I also think you should be playing lower if you're worried about the $$ when it's a kill hand.

[profpeebody]

I didn't read the results so forgive me if I'm completely off but I would be concerned with this:
[ QUOTE ]
SB gives every indication of throwing her hand away while she awaits my decision

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read Mike Caro's book of tells and he says to be careful when some looks like the are folding out of turn or about to fold. Depending on your reads, you should have been able to tell if she is the type of player has a "weak means strong" tell. A lot of players are too busy or lazy to even put on an act.

I would be afraid of her because of the tell but especially because you said she was very tight.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
Coming home I decided my mistake was not reraising on the flop to get some sense of his real strength (and to get the SB out). If he capped I could have folded the turn without improvement. That would have saved me 1BB ($24) at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give your description of the player, I don't find a single spot in this hand you could fold, and most definitely not on the river. You can't fold, and it sucks to get shown AA, but you can't fold.

Three bet the flop if you can't pull the trigger on a turn raise.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
you have a pair of queens with a Ten kicker. you have been check-raised and someone else has called 1 bet on the flop already. you have no flush or straight draws.

i don't care if your opponent is a LAG, you can only beat a bluff. furthermore, you can only beat that bluff if the SB is weaker than you.


[/ QUOTE ]

You underestimate the meaning of LAG.

[private joker]

I think I'd take an out-of-date Andre 3000 over this:

http://www.mestizo.org/camara/schwarz/schwarz3.jpg

[Victor]

So why would you want to let the sb hit her draw for cheap? Hero is likely ahead here given his descripiton of the LAG.

You advocate to just call when he is ahead because the sb wont fold anyway. This is wrong. The small blind is on a draw and you make money when she misses which is often enough to make raising profitable.

[bdk3clash]

This is what I think of when online personal ads say "curvy."

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I would 3-bet the flop and take it from there. Given your line, I'm not even going to dignify what you should do on the river with a response.

Are you comfortable playing $12/24?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks to everyone for the beat-down, I deserved it. I have no problem playing $12/24, but I clearly have a problem with passivity. Online it's not so bad, but at the B&M I get into these passive ruts, I think it has something to do with the long periods of waiting for a good hand. I start looking to save bets in case I'm beat, instead of overwhelming my opponents with flurries of chips. Tonight I counted several more examples, one clearly cost me a hand and the second cost me river bet in another kill pot. Time to amp up my B&M aggro!

[willie24]

our difference of opinion on what action should be taken comes from our difference of opinion on how likely it is that we are ahead. i think that i am ahead no more than 30% of the time here. you, and most other posters here, think it is much higher than that.

yes, if i thought i was ahead 40-50% of hte time or more, i realize that it would definitely be right to raise.

[willie24]

[ QUOTE ]
You underestimate the meaning of LAG

[/ QUOTE ]

this is entirely possible