bkd takes poor kevin to poker school... [Archive]

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Kevin

12-02-2004, 12:47 AM

Should I have checked behind on the flop?
The three bet was done with the hope of getting a free card with the gut shot draw. It was obviously foiled.

At what point do I put my tail between my legs and go away on this one? when it is checkraised back to me? unimproved on 4th?

Thanks,
Kevin

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG posts a blind of $3.
2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB
Main Pot: 11.66 BB, between MP2, Hero and BB.

bdk3clash

12-02-2004, 03:50 AM

I think you should fold the turn, but I'm somewhat biased because I know what I had.

cnfuzzd

12-02-2004, 04:06 AM

Easiest turn fold ever. A know good player who didnt cap it when you 3 bet preflop is now going nutso on you on the flop. He clearly jas AJ or KQ. AT or TT is a possibility, but he is telling you that you are beat. At best, you are drawing to ~four outs, and some are probably to a slit. Lay it down.

peace

john nickle

Grease

12-02-2004, 04:07 AM

I would also fold the turn. I don't think of any hand that he would cap the flop with that you're still ahead of. You could easily be drawing to half the pot if he has AK. You don't have enough outs to continue, and you know your opponent will hammer you until the end.

cnfuzzd

12-02-2004, 04:10 AM

Bdk would cap AK preflop, even out of position...

peace

john nickle

bdk3clash

12-02-2004, 04:48 AM

Depends. Here I would have.

Evan

12-02-2004, 05:00 AM

Is there really a point to 3 betting the flop?

bdk3clash

12-02-2004, 05:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there really a point to 3 betting the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Only if you're going to use me capping or raising the turn as an excuse to fold.

Evan

12-02-2004, 05:10 AM

Oh, wow. I didn't even realize this was you. I'm insta-folding to the flop c/r.

EDIT: oops, we have guthsot. Forget that. CALL THE FLOP. FOLD THE TURN!!!!!!!!!

Kevin

12-02-2004, 08:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He clearly jas AJ or KQ. AT or TT is a possibility, but he is telling you that you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot had 11.66 bbs in the end which means it had 8.6 whent it was to me on 4th. If I was drawing to 6 outs, I was at 6.7 to 1 - the reason I called it was that I thought that the 2 kings outs live - as I thought he would wait until the expensive streets with KQ or AA.

The flop 3 bet was a valiant but wasted attempt to get to see this cheap to the river. The cap seemed to be telling me AK no goot. (so KK really, really no goot).

Obviously behind on the river, but for one bet.... I know.. I create a big pot behind the whole way and then justify a loose call on the end because of the big pot that I contributed to.

Just wondering if the turn fold is easy if I have 6 live card that I am drawing to - even discounted to 5 it seems really close.

Chaos_ult

12-02-2004, 09:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The flop 3 bet was a valiant but wasted attempt to get to see this cheap to the river. The cap seemed to be telling me AK no goot. (so KK really, really no goot).

[/ QUOTE ]

You 3-bet him preflop, and he still raises you on that flop. I really don't think that a 3-bet here is going to accomplish what you were trying to do. Call, and fold the turn unimproved.

sfer

12-02-2004, 10:23 AM

Did you think about calling the flop 3-bet and checkraising the turn?

AdamL

12-02-2004, 10:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Depends. Here I would have.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your criteria and why?

StellarWind

12-02-2004, 11:07 AM

Checking the flop is an interesting idea. I suspect that betting is -EV because of your weak hand and the danger of being checkraised so you may save money immediately. The strategic idea is to provoke bdk3clash into assuming the initiative on the turn with his weaker hands so that you can play this as a simple calldown.

Checking also varies your play. This checkraise was too much of a sure thing. Supposedly you have position but that sure isn't evident given the way the hand played out.

It's not completely clear what to do on the turn. bdk3clash could be up to something.

What is clear is that you should not be in that situation. 3-betting this board for a free card is not a good play against virtually anyone, but against a strong player it is terrible.

This board really favors weaker, noncapping PFRs (KQ, AJ, AT, JJ, TT) over most of the powerful 3-betting hands (KK, QQ, AK). You are likely to be behind and you can expect to be vigorously attacked because the situation will be pretty obvious.

If you calmly call the flop checkraise then you can decide on the turn whether to fold or look him up. Either approach would be reasonable and you wouldn't have anything to regret at the end of the hand.

Kevin

12-02-2004, 07:00 PM

First of all, thanks for the feedback. The nice thing about playing you all at the tables is that we we play 15-18% and come in for a raise more often than not, It is usually a 3 bet or fold - so I get to stay out of your way most of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
What is clear is that you should not be in that situation. 3-betting this board for a free card is not a good play against virtually anyone, but against a strong player it is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for this brutal and honest feedback. It is a lesson learned that will hopefully save me lots of bets in the future.
[ QUOTE ]
This board really favors weaker, noncapping PFRs (KQ, AJ, AT, JJ, TT) over most of the powerful 3-betting hands (KK, QQ, AK). You are likely to be behind and you can expect to be vigorously attacked because the situation will be pretty obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very insightful in retrospect - and a very valued lesson that I will take forward.

I guess a question for the villian /images/graemlins/smile.gif is why with a 3 bet pre-flop and a 3 bet on the flop was AA not even considered? Is it because there was only 1 combination of AA vs the 6 for kings and queens and the many for AK? Obviously a great read, but I was just wondering for my future reference.

[ QUOTE ]
fold the turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would also fold the turn

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easiest turn fold ever. A know good player who didnt cap it when you 3 bet preflop is now going nutso on you on the flop. He clearly jas AJ or KQ. AT or TT is a possibility

[/ QUOTE ]

It is pretty much unanimous - fold the turn. However, in John's message above, I have 6 outs to AJ, AT and TT and 3 outs to chop with KQ. So, if they are weighted evenly, it is 5.25 (4.5 to win .75 to chop) outs. somewhere between 7.5 and 10.5 to 1 with the pot laying 8.6 (If I am calculating correctly - which could be a fundamental flaw).

Not second guessing anyone, just hoping for some simple clarification so that I don't make the same mistake in the future.

Overplaying big pairs with overs is a part of the game that I need to continue to get better with and this feedback will really help. I find myself hopelessly paying off these hands while folding a small pair to a late position bet when there was a good chance that a little resistance could take that pot down.

If anyone gets a chance to look at my 99 hand that got buried below, I would appreciate it. It was a tough fold, and I want to make sure that it was the right thing to do - regardless of the outcome of the hand.

Results below, if anyone is interested (though most nailed it).

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG posts a blind of $3.
2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB
Main Pot: 11.66 BB, between MP2, Hero and BB. > Pot won by MP2 (11.66 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB doesn't show.
MP2 has Td Ad (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins 11.66 BB.

MoreWineII

12-02-2004, 07:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess a question for the villian is why with a 3 bet pre-flop and a 3 bet on the flop was AA not even considered?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not villian, but...

He doesn't have any reason really to put you on exactly AA or JJ at this point. You'd probably play AQ or AK the same way on the flop, maybe QQ or KK even

Had you raised the turn, *then* I'd be willing to bet bdk slows down.