Final table questions????

[TonyS0pran0]

Ok, I made two final tables in party $30+$3 multi's in two days. I would like some advice as to where I went wrong or what I could of done differently on the two hands that busted me out. I have only been playing for 4-5 months so I am relatively new. I have about every poker book known to man and I have been reading my ass off the past two months and practicing and it is paying off.

Scenario #1
Final table 6 to go out of 800. I have the second highest chip count by a wide margin. I am dealt AK in the BB and the chip leader raises 4x the BB on the button. So I immediatly think steal and push all in. He flips over 10 10 and I get no help. Picked up $1000.00 but if I had won I would of been in the drivers seat for $5800. What should I have done?

Scenario 2:
Final table 4 left out of 450 and I am the chip leader. Get dealt JJ on the button and raise 4X the BB. The BB is 2nd in chip position but has been playing very recklessly. He has been going all in with hands like A10, J10 etc. He comes over the top all in. I sit and debate for the maximum amount of time and am about to fold but my drunk friend talks me into calling. He flips over JQ and 4 diamonds come out and he makes a flush. I win $1000 but would of easily took 1st had I won for $3800. What should I have done here?

Thanks for the help!!

[zaxx19]

Actually both plays arent bad at all. Im really suprised he called with 10s there horrible call IMHO. One thing though if you feel like your playing well then try not to get into huge battles with stacks that can break you generally..although I kinda like this push here. The JJ is an insta-call for me there. I really let myself gamble on final tables and if you start laying hands like JJ or QQ you really got no shot.

[TonyS0pran0]

Well the AK one I don't feel that bad about, he had me beat pre-flop. But that guy who came over the top with JQ kills me. I may have mucked it if I didn't have such a good read on the guy. Anyway, enough crying, I am starting to sound like Phil Helmuth...

[zaxx19]

HEY PHIL HELLMUTH RULES MAN!!!

[EnderIII]

As far as scenerio 1 goes, I tend to proceed very carefully when tangling with the chip leader, especially if I am in #2 by a wide margin. Unless calling is absurd based on chip stack sizes, i think you'd be better of seeing a flop...and i'm normally an advocate of betting AK big before the flop. I just wouldn't want to go all in preflop vs. the chip leader with any thing short of AA or KK...and I probably would with QQ i just wouldn't want to. The reason for this is that the blinds will put lots of pressure on the short stacks and you can either try to pick them off with premium hands or sit back and move up the money. Even if the chip leader takes them all down, going heads up down 3-1 in chips and having second locked up is not a bad scenerio.

As far as #2 is concerned, especially if you read him as reckless, thats a good call and just an unforunate break. Just keep putting yourself in positions to get lucky and it should all work out.

Congrats on making two final tables on consecutive days, thats quite good.

[TonyS0pran0]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as scenerio 1 goes, I tend to proceed very carefully when tangling with the chip leader, especially if I am in #2 by a wide margin. Unless calling is absurd based on chip stack sizes, i think you'd be better of seeing a flop...and i'm normally an advocate of betting AK big before the flop. I just wouldn't want to go all in preflop vs. the chip leader with any thing short of AA or KK...and I probably would with QQ i just wouldn't want to. The reason for this is that the blinds will put lots of pressure on the short stacks and you can either try to pick them off with premium hands or sit back and move up the money. Even if the chip leader takes them all down, going heads up down 3-1 in chips and having second locked up is not a bad scenerio.

As far as #2 is concerned, especially if you read him as reckless, thats a good call and just an unforunate break. Just keep putting yourself in positions to get lucky and it should all work out.

Congrats on making two final tables on consecutive days, thats quite good.

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You're right, I got sick oh him stealing blinds and wanted to make a stand. I am quite shocked he called, but he had the better end of the coin flip so good on him. When I get in the money in big tournaments I tend to loosen up and go after every pot to accumulate a massive chip count and sometimes I take it a little to far I guess.

[ZootMurph]

What were the payouts?

In scenario 1, you say you are 2nd by a wide margin... why tangle with the big stack? You'll have a chance once the rest of the crowd is out and you've gotten a much bigger payout. The only way I'd tangle with him is if he'd been stealing a lot... otherwise, I'll trade an ocassional blind for 2nd place money any day.

Scenario 2: If they guy was happy being maniacal, I'd just push preflop. Other than that, I can't see any other way to play it.

[TonyS0pran0]

In scenario 1 he was stealing a lot (as he should of been). Decided to take a stand and cost myself and least $1800. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[zaxx19]

Well Tony take solace in me telling you it probably was the correct thing to do for a myriad of reasons (not the least of which is it will seriously slow down his aggression towards you and your blinds) and his call was atrocious in my estimation especially if you had been solid at the table.. he is basically praying for 2 overs--not a great situation. And they call me weak passive so...This is how late late tourneys shake out, two good hands, neither player gives in.

[TonyS0pran0]

[ QUOTE ]
Well Tony take solace in me telling you it probably was the correct thing to do for a myriad of reasons (not the least of which is it will seriously slow down his aggression towards you and your blinds) and his call was atrocious in my estimation especially if you had been solid at the table.. he is basically praying for 2 overs--not a great situation. And they call me weak passive so...This is how late late tourneys shake out, two good hands, neither player gives in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can live with the AK vs 10 10. The JJ one really hurts though. Thanks for all your help/pity.

[kuro]

I think you absolutely have to defend your blinds with AK if the villain has been stealing repeatedly from you. However, there are a number of other ways to defend besides pushing all-in.

Other options:
1)Making a significant raise. Advantage is that it will fold most steal hands without putting your whole stack in jeopardy and maybe appears stronger than an all-in which screams don't call. You need a pretty big stack to avoid pot committing yourself with your raise as well.

2) Flat calling and then betting the flop/turn. Gives your opponent a chance to see all the possible ways that he is beaten and can give you alot of folding equity. However, if the oponent hits the flop hard you're going to still lose alot of chips.

I think what you do depends on your stack size relative to the blinds, the size of all the other stacks, the difference in prize money, and the likelyhood that you think your opponent would fold.

[tiger7210]

On the 1st hand, unless you are almost 100% certain you can get him to fold by pushing I think I would call here to see a flop and try and bust him. Without knowing exact stack sizes or blinds that may not have been the right play but I live by the theory that when I'm at the final table and I am comfortably in 2nd chip position, I'm not making my stand against the 1 guy that can bust me. I would rather use my chips against the smaller stacks where I can push them around.

As for hand 2, based on your read of the player, you definitely made the right play and just got called by a lucky fool. Unfotunately you can make the right play and still get screwed and that's what happened here.

[TonyS0pran0]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you absolutely have to defend your blinds with AK if the villain has been stealing repeatedly from you. However, there are a number of other ways to defend besides pushing all-in.

Yeah, I agree with you. I should of just re raised and hoped to catch the flop or atleast made him think I had a higher pair and effectively scare him and set him up for a steal. Oh well, live and learn... I'll get better with time.

Other options:
1)Making a significant raise. Advantage is that it will fold most steal hands without putting your whole stack in jeopardy and maybe appears stronger than an all-in which screams don't call. You need a pretty big stack to avoid pot committing yourself with your raise as well.

2) Flat calling and then betting the flop/turn. Gives your opponent a chance to see all the possible ways that he is beaten and can give you alot of folding equity. However, if the oponent hits the flop hard you're going to still lose alot of chips.

I think what you do depends on your stack size relative to the blinds, the size of all the other stacks, the difference in prize money, and the likelyhood that you think your opponent would fold.

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