Are some top player's broke?

[mojorisin24]

I saw this in a previous post: "...but if you've read Negreanu's site, one of the things he says is that a lot of these 'big names' you see on tv tournaments are broke and getting staked."

How true is this? Does anyone know of any top players who are broke?

[Synth]

I don't know of any big name players that are broke per-say but I do know that T.J Cloutier has asked for cash a few times to play in some of the big tournaments due to his gambling problem. I also believe Amir Vahedi lost 3.5 million in the "big game" to weaken his bankroll. I might however be mistaken.

[mojorisin24]

Cloutier doesn't surprise me that much. I had read that he's fond of the dice... As for Vahedi, well, that definitely sucks losing $3.5 million. That said, I wish there was a way to find out how much some of these pros make (or lose) in those monstrous side games /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[housenuts]

are you able to watch the side games or are the roped off in some high rollers area?

[mojorisin24]

Good question. I'm not sure, but I'd love to know myself.

[ZBTHorton]

At the Bellagio "big game". You can watch from the ropes.

[knifeandfork]

scotty n, and huck seed are "so broke they will never get out of debt"

[ed8383]

why are top poker players broke? yes I know that some might spend all their money and have no savings.

If not mistaken their backers get most of their winnings correct? can anyone that knows how this works explain this? how do the backers and the players split the money? how much do they get etc?

[BusterStacks]

I think broke is a relative term. 10k is broke to a lot of big time pros.

[PoBoy321]

I was the guy who put in the original post. I went back and found the actualy entry on Negranu's site.

[ QUOTE ]
It should be no secret to you all by now, but I've said before and I'll say again that the typical tournament "stars' you see on tv are either broke or being staked and couldn't hack it with the "real players" in the big games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the full entry. (http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-journal.php?subaction=showfull&id=1099616330&archi ve=&start_from=&ucat=1&) He doesn't really dwell on this point, but there it is.

Note: Negranu's site has their own forums and they're awful. I think he puts out some great articles but the forums are just retarded. Someone put up a hand where he moved all in with top set, got called by a flush draw and lost. People actually told him that it was the wrong move. It blew my mind.

[mojorisin24]

Thanks, man. The funny thing is that I've done some snooping around on the internet and found some interesting, albeit dissapointing, stories about Cloutier. I don't know how "legit" the forum is, but on the WPT message board someone started a thread with a story about Cloutier "borrowing" $300 for the craps table, apparently with the intent of never paying it back. The poster also mentions someone who was wearing a "TJ Owes Me" t-shirt at the Bellagio, apparently alluding to a distasteful habit of Cloutier. After a few terse, derogatory responses, up crop a few seemingly serious posters to defend the "donkey" of the thread, who have detailed stories about Cloutier losing at the craps table, "borrowing" money, etc. The final post is the most detailed, and disturbing, of all. It details TJ's behavior at the 2003 WSOP, where apparently he lost a lot of money playing craps and was "confirmed" broke by the poster. Who knows if this stuff is true, but nevertheless I found it very interesting, especially considering how consistent it is with some other things I've heard. Besides, why would all these people make this stuff up? That said, I would like to add that Cloutier is one of my poker heroes, and I sincerely hope that it's not true.

Here's the link to the page: http://www.wptfan.com/article.php?story=20040926022643517

[PoBoy321]

It really is sad to hear these stories about some of these "top" players who're broke. From TJ's story it seem like it more that he's got too many bad habits to make up for his poker winnings. A lot of the real winning poker pros talk about money management as being the real key to winning poker. I guess that this should really be more of a warning to all of the aspiring poker players out there to watch out for the pitfalls of being a professional gambler.

[The T.A.]

Well, Andy Bloch confirmed TJ's "borrowing" ways in the WPT thread, and I really doubt he'd spit out something that was untrue.

It's a shame that TJ can have so much discipline while playing poker, but no discipline anywhere else.

[wray]

One thing that I took from Josh Arieh's interview was when he was asked what was one of the biggest thing someone needs to do to make it as a pro. He said don't have any other gambling vices. He said he saw many people that had other gambling addictions that hurt their poker bankroll.

[BusterFlush]

Some poker players are poker players and some poker players are gamblers. I bet the gamblers are the broke ones.

[mojorisin24]

Definitely. Arieh is so right when he says that top pros CANNOT have another gambling vice, or else they will always be threatening their bankroll.

[Beavis68]

What is funny to me is that they will play a game like craps that CANNOT be beaten.

I don't know if TJ is broke, but I have read various places - maybe even from him, that he has a backer for all of his tournaments.

I lot of the gamblers really are not mathematically oriented, TJ has several logical flaws in his books.

Stu was always broke. Money just doesn't hold a meaning to some people.

Hell, I saw MAGICPITCH playing 100/200 Omaha heads-up on UB against Chopped Liver, he took her for 2k or so, and she asked if he would transfer her 10k on UB and she would transfer him 10k on PS.

He asked if he knew her, and she said no. Then started saying that she was having trouble opening up PS. And giving excuses. He asked for her first name and still transfered her 10k!

She kept talking about the problems and he said, lets just play, maybe you will win and you can pay me back that way.

She said she would transfer the money back to him and then vanished. I would love to know if he ever got the money back. Total stranger " can I borrow $10k so I can keep playing you after you just beat me out of $xk?"

Pro poker player "sure"

WTF? I really thought Benyamine would be more cautious.

[turnipmonster]

it mystifies me why anyone is shocked at all by this. tournaments have a huge variance, and it takes a lot of overhead flying around and staying in hotels from tourney to tourney.

frankly the only thing that shocks me is anyone is able to make a living on the "tourney circuit".

--turnipmonster

[BusterFlush]

The top players can cover their expenses playing side games before, after, and during the tournament. My understanding is the tournments atract fish who are just happy to say they sat at a table with these players.

[mojorisin24]

I don't think that anyone's "shocked" at news that players like Cloutier are backed in every tournament- in fact, there's nothing wrong with that at all- rather some of us are just surprised that some of the guys we see on TV or at tournaments or on bookshelves are themselves not exactly wealthy, even after all their winnings. It's a reality in the gambling world, but it still raises one's eyebrows to hear such stories.

[srblan]

I don't think that very many people make a living on the tourney circuit. I could be mistaken, but the variance would be much too high to try to live off of that income. One of the reasons that the top cash game players choose to play in tournaments is because of the overlay that they get. The internet satellites and supersatellites provide a ton of dead money in the WPT events, so they play because it is a good investment if they can manage to eek out a win.

[eMarkM]

Why do so many pro atheletes making millions of dollars a year eventually go broke and declare bankruptcy, they should be set for life. It's simple, they live beyond their means. If they make a million dollars and then spend it, they're broke. They blow it all on big houses, fancy cars, supporting their entourages and horrible investments that there's nothing left in savings. Same with many that have that gambling mentality that attracts them to poker. They make a big score and they blow it all. Look at what Matusow said at the WSOP. He was set for life a few years ago and he blew it all on partying.

[mojorisin24]

It's so true. Many athletes, particularly boxers, blow huge sums of money because they simply can't handle it. In poker, we get guys like Stu Ungar, Mike Matusow, etc. who are actually degenerate gamblers or drug-users that happen to be very good cardplayers (or in Ungar's case, the best ever). But once they succeed, they want more, and then they inevitably self-destruct.

[turnipmonster]

I think the worst investment many players make are buyins to additional tourneys. I'll bet your average tournament winner spends a hell of a lot more money on big buyin tourneys where theie EV may very well be negative, than on fast cars or coke.

--turnipmonster