J10s from co

[radek2166]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.



Is the limp correct?
Flop: (10 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Raises to get get a free turn card.

Turn: (8 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Rest of the hand plays it self


River: (11 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

The players In the hand are your usuall suspects. VP$IP &gt;40

[sthief09]

raising to get a free card when you have nothing and your outs are dubious is terrible.

[radek2166]

So my line?

I have a backdoor flush draw. I have a backdoor straight draw and 2 over cards. By the SB betting out here he more than likely got a piece of the flop or hes betting overs.

[Fat Nicky]

Limp pre-flop is fine.

I don't think raising here raises your pot equity enough to warrant it. As a matter of fact, I don't think it's even close. You only have one more player to knock out as it's likely the other 2 that already limped will call the raise. This is a perfect situation to just take 1 more card off for cheap.

[27offsooot]

I agree with sthief, raising is bad. I fold the flop.
two backdoors = what 2-2.5 outs (1.5 for the flush, .5-1 for the str8?) + at best 6 over outs = marginal call.
aren't u a little concerned by sb checking after raising PF in terrible position? If u have a great read that sb will fold overcards (and has just overcards), then the raise is marginally better. Maybe you're cleaning up some outs.

[radek2166]

So I should see the turn for 1 bet? When I hit top pair then what?

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
So I should see the turn for 1 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. You have marginal overcards and weak backdoor draws, hope the SB doesn't raise and just call.

[ QUOTE ]
When I hit top pair then what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then play your hand like you just hit top pair and raise to a turn bet.

[radek2166]

Thanks. Differant game from the micro's

[Greg J]

I hope to be playing in these games before too long, so hope you guys don't mind a question. I would like to know this so I can be a winner when I move out of the shallow end: How is raising here incorrect?

[ QUOTE ]
raising to get a free card when you have nothing and your outs are dubious is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking: JT is a potentially dominated hand, yes, so your T and J outs are not that clean. However, raising here might clean up some of these outs. In a smaller pot I lay this down in a second, but the pot is pretty big. I have the BD flush, and probably .5 outs worth of straight potential. If I'm up against a set I'm not in good shape, but the pot is so big at this point I'm willing to risk it.

I want to clarify: I am not coming into this forum trying to argue with sthief. He is (rightfully) a very well respected poster. I just want to understand this so I can be a better player. Becuase of this I want whoever reads this to attack my argument as fiercely as it needs to be attacked. I won't take offence -- as I once told bison: I am not a special little snowflake. I am, however, trying to take my game to the next level.

Thanks

[radek2166]

SB checks, BB bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Raises to get get a free turn card.

IMHO I am not up against a set.

If I was I would get 3 bet?

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Raises to get get a free turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that too. Sorry, that was implied -- I mean no one raises to get a free card JUST for the purpose of getting a free card. That would be pretty pathological -- you need cards to go with it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[radek2166]

I am trying to understand the line I should take here. I can see getting 2 cards here with a C/R. I figure the guy got part of the flop.

It is a differant animal at 2/4 vs 1/2 I am just trying to make the transition.

I think I posted what is asked for. Anything I miseed?

[Evan]

I know talking about preflop play is taboo, but is this a standard raise for anyone else?

I'm not crazy about the flop raise, your outs are not strong enough to raise for a free card that you won't always get.

EDIT: In general raising for free cards w/ lots of backdoor draws just isn't a very good idea since you're going to need to get help on the turn anyway. Sicne you're likely folding to a bad turn card (unlike with a flopped 4 flush) getting a free river just isn't that valuable.

[MagicRat]

I like the flop raise myself too (overcards, back-door draws, good size pot) although the concern would be since SB was pre-flop raiser was he going for a check-raise. Think I'd follow your line anyway.

Also, would it be totally pathological to actually consider raising this yourself pre-flop? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Although my post is 9 minutes later I actually hadn't read Evan's post at this point re: pre-flop raise

[radek2166]

Yes I am probably weak tight right now On the move up.

[Hermlord]

Preflop: you could raise this, it wouldn't be terrible but I don't think it's quite as strong a hand as people want to think. It's really more a drawing hand. Would you raise 89s or 9Ts here? (Maybe you would, I don't know).

As to the original question, I'm inclined to fold this flop. Your BD draws are not super-strong, you have overcards but not top overcards and yours could easily be dominated, you have someone betting into the pf raiser and a caller after that, so you're likely behind right now. Plus you have no idea what the pf raiser will do (though he folded here, he could easily have a big hand). Yes it's a big pot, but I think you're fighting too hard for a pot when you don't really have a good piece of the cards. Remember, the goal is to maximize wins and minimize losses -- not win as many pots as possible.

But I'm stupid so maybe this is all wrong. Rebuttals?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's quite as strong a hand as people want to think.

[/ QUOTE ]
JTs in LP rules.

[Hermlord]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's quite as strong a hand as people want to think.

[/ QUOTE ]
JTs in LP rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm certainly not suggesting a preflop fold. No way. But after the SB raise and flop action it doesn't look nearly as good.

[Evan]

Unless you knew the SB was gonna raise behind you, you should raise here preflop. That is to say, you should always raise here preflop.

[beerbandit]

remember the pf raiser (sb) still is left to act.

its very posssible that he will 3-bet and then your hand must be dumped. i call here and see what develops

rest of the hand looks fine


cheers

[Hermlord]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you knew the SB was gonna raise behind you, you should raise here preflop. That is to say, you should always raise here preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSH says call call call. Not that I take this as the Gospel; this is one of those tricky good-but-not-great hands that I will sometimes call and sometimes raise based on my table read.