early dilemas

[stripsqueez]

a virgin post in this forum

i've taken to running multi table NL tourneys whilst multi tabling short handed limit but i'm still a novice to multis

today i played a $100 buy-in no rebuy NL tourney on paradise - i got to do the double up dance early and after a couple of blind steals i had T3500 with the blinds at 50/100 and about half the roughly 200 strong field gone - i get 44 on the button and limp after 1 other limper - both blinds play

flop is 4h 6h 10c - checked to me and only the BB calls my bet of T250 (the BB started the hand with T200 less than me)

turn is Kd - BB checks and then calls my T900 bet

river is 8h and the BB pushes

should i call ? - did i play it ok before the river ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[kuro]

On the flop:
Your raise on the flop was kinda weak. You still give your opponent odds to chase the flush and straight draws that are out there. I'd have made around a pot sized bet there.

On the turn:
I'd have probably pushed here. If you get called then you have a decent chance of more than doubling up and if he folds then you've still added a considerable chunk to your stack.

[zaxx19]

Make a strong bet on the flop. If someone has a decent hand he might see you on a steal or on a draw and reraise. If someone is on a flush draw he might reraise, either way your getting money into the pot as a favorite with a chance to trap someone. Doyle Brunson's section in SS on betting with a set really openend my eyes on this. Oh and Im probably all-in on the turn..at the very least I make a huge bet.

[Geoff]

Forgive my audacity in responding.

Why risk your whole pile here? No read on the BB but why risk the trny when you can outplay them down the road. You may very well lose the hand.

P.S. Thanks for your dirty outs reply to my post some time ago. great insight for a newbie.

Geoff

[Stoneii]

I disagree, the advice sounds to me like river specific (just my opinion). If I always drove out every potential caller when I flop a set then I'm not maximising my pots.

The 250 bet into a 400 is an invite to play to the opponent yes if he touched the flop yet will be enough to fold him if he misses.

The pot bet on the turn is the bet that denies him the correct odds to chase his flush. Since he ignored these odds then I'd be reassured he would have ignored the odds being denied on a pot bet on the flop with 2 cards to see.

It would come down to any read you had on your opponent, has he chased and folded the river before? Would his tendency be to check the river if he hit? Would he try to semi bluff the turn by check raising? What hand is he putting you on?

Your pot bet looks like a protecting bet for something like AT? so he may well have decided to bluff at the pot if a heart hits or bet his turned 2 pair? aggressively if no Ace hit?

Haven't really helped here have I - lol - but I think it's a tougher laydown than others suggest given his play than it looks, I may be tempted to call it.

stoneii

[37offsuit]

Uh, fold. Not even close here. Yes, you could have put a hurting on him on the turn to make his chase very unprofitable and to stick you to the pot, but unfortunately for you on this hand, it looks very much like he got there on the end. Why would he go all in here? Bluff? With what? You bet this ragged flop. What does he put you on? You limped preflop, so maybe AT. Ok, fine. What does he have in the BB that he called your flop with? Nothing? The K falls on the turn and you bet MORE than on the flop. Shows him the K didn't scare you, so either he puts you on KT or a flopped set. The river completes both an open ended straight draw for 57, the unlikely gut shot with 79 or the flush draw. Maybe he just has two pair himself, but that's the only hand I can see him having that you beat.

[Lurshy]

I also beleive you need to bet stronger on the flop and turn. While it is nice to slow play monsters, bottom set with a draw on the board is not that strong. Pot sized flop bet is mandatory. Rethink on the turn based on action, reads and mood. High set with rainbow flop, play is fine, but not here IMHO.

[fnord_too]

Any read on the BB? The river bet is very suspicious. I have seen made hands and bluffs in this spot. I really would like to have some idea of how deeply the BB thinks here. I could see this as a bluff from a tricky player, I could see this as a flush (or a straight) from a tricky player. I could also see it as a bluff or a flush from a weak player.

Against someone I had absolutely no read on, I probably call. Most people who chase the flush there will try to check raise you with it. (If checked to on this river I would certainly check behind). Also, a lot of players try to bluff when scare cards hit.

Bottom line, if you have been at the same table with this guy for more than an orbit or two, you really should have some idea of how he plays. My decisions in tournaments are far more player dependant than my decisions in cash games (well, at least limit cash games, which is primarily what I play right now).

Here's something I would highly reccomend: Set up a PT Database for paradise NL tournies, auto-import (if possible) and pull up a game time window. This is a pain if you are multi-tabling tournies. I don't use game time windows for cash games, but I think they are extremely valuable in tournaments.

BTW, you playing in the Super Wednesday (on Party) tonight? Limit tourney, good stuff.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I also beleive you need to bet stronger on the flop and turn. While it is nice to slow play monsters, bottom set with a draw on the board is not that strong. Pot sized flop bet is mandatory. Rethink on the turn based on action, reads and mood. High set with rainbow flop, play is fine, but not here IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

My standard bet is 2/3 - 3/4 on flops, probably 300 into a 400 pot. I think this is better since you really don't fold a lot more hands with the bigger bet, and you save chips. I don't think this is slow played at all, he made what is probably his standard bet on the flop (though I agree the standard should be slightly higher here). If his opponent is chasing a flush, he certainly is not getting the odds he needs for either call (assuming there will be a bet on the turn if the flush misses).