common but important situation

[Steve Giufre]

Just played this hand, it got me thinking a little. Party 15-30. Im in SB with Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Button raises which is just what he does when it is folded to him. Id say he is a typical internet player, a little bit on the loose aggro side.

Flop:9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet and get called, which I have to believe he will do with a lot of his holdings here, both when he has a pair and when he doesnt.

Turn: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, he raises I muck.


Anybody play there turn any different? I'm starting to thnik being out of position is just too much of a disadvange to three bet this hand here. I almost think calling is better with a loose player in BB. Any thoughts about the preflop three bet and the turn play? I had just seen him get out of line on the turn with no pair the hand before and I was really tempted to three bet him. I hate checking the turn here since I cant win a showdown, but I feel like I spewed a few chips too...

[roy_miami]

Did you 3-bet or call preflop?

My standard re-steal play is a check raise on the flop and lead the turn. I save the old bet out for my bigger hands. If he calls or raises the turn your usually in deep doo doo, it works often enough in my games to be profitable though.

[Steve Giufre]

nm

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you 3-bet or call preflop?

My standard re-steal play is a check raise on the flop and lead the turn. I save the old bet out for my bigger hands. If he calls or raises the turn your usually in deep doo doo, it works often enough in my games to be profitable though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im assuming the fact that I left out what I did preflop made it difficult for you to answer. Now that you know I three bet do you still checkraise the flop here? Im more likely to lead out after the preflop three bet. Had I decided to smooth call preflop, my default would probably be check fold.

[elindauer]

As with all heads up situations, the answer is highly player dependent. As a default play though, this is about the only way to go if you choose to get involved. Don't get involved unless you believe there is a decent chance you can win without a showdown.

Good luck.
Eric

[bicyclekick]

QJs is a hand I just call out of the SB with in this situation.

[LarsVegas]

We all get these thoughts sometimes when we go through a barren spell of three-betting marginal hands from the SB vs a button raise. Whether it's better to cold-call or even fold a few more hands. I think it's not. All poker players experience barren spells in all aspects of the game, be it missing 15 flopped flush draw on a row or something else.

Granted, QJs represents just about the weakest made hand value you will three-bet from the small blind vs a button raise when you don't hit anything to your hand. This may make it look "very exposed" when you are stood there at turn, facing a raise with Q high and no draw. On the other hand, QJs will FREQUENTLY make something that can stand some action on the turn, be it a high pair or a good draw. Three-betting a hand such A5o is much harder in that aspect, although then you are secured at least A high the whole way. And I still think even that can be correct in a 10-15 blind structure with an averagely-to-above averagely aggressive button raisor.

I mean, if you threebet AA-66, AK-AT, Ax suited, KQ, KJ, KQ-K9s and QJ-QTs, you average holding on the turn will be a LOT stronger than Q high, no draw. So if he wants to raise you on the turn every time, let him be your guest.

lars

[LarsVegas]

I am surprised by this. Elindauer seems to have got it right: "I don't play this unless I think it's a decent chance I can win it without a showdown".

I must admit I have smooth-called a fair amount of similar hands in the SB in the face of a button raise. My default play is it check-fold a missed flop. Christ, having played it that way even T-8-x with a wrong twosuit seems very, very close to a check-fold. I cannot see in which way I can profitably start to put chips in on a flop like 9-7-2 or K-K-4 having only smoothcalled preflop.

[Paluka]

I think with a loose/bad player in the big blind calling is much better than re-raising. Your hand plays well multiway, and the button is a lot less likely to keep pushing his hand now if he tried to steal with complete trash.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
I am surprised by this. Elindauer seems to have got it right: "I don't play this unless I think it's a decent chance I can win it without a showdown".

I must admit I have smooth-called a fair amount of similar hands in the SB in the face of a button raise. My default play is it check-fold a missed flop. Christ, having played it that way even T-8-x with a wrong twosuit seems very, very close to a check-fold. I cannot see in which way I can profitably start to put chips in on a flop like 9-7-2 or K-K-4 having only smoothcalled preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The problem is that the button is so used to the LAGs in that game pushing no pair when they defend agaist a button raise, that they will call down ace more often than not, and sometimes make a move with a hand that doesnt have showdown value. When I do smoothcall preflop from this spot, Im really unlikely to start pushing no pair draw, although I dont think that is what Bike is suggesting.

On the other hand, I usually feel obligated to go ahead and bet the turn again when I know I probably wont win a showdown after I do three bet. The problem is that I think the button will call the flop with such a wide range of hands, its tough to not fire again because its such a common spot to float. I think I would be a lot more likely to check AK there than I would QJ agaist an aggresive player on the button who is gonna try to win the pot with or without a hand a lot of the time.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
QJs is a hand I just call out of the SB with in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally do that also, but not always.

If I'm going to 3-bet and try to take control of the hand, I want something that has a good chance of winning a showdown unimproved, like Ax or 55.

[TStoneMBD]

everything paluka said times 2

[Luke]

I'd almost always just call in the SB here. You have a hand that plays well multiway, doesn't have much showdown value headsup and since you're playing against a loosey, you're going to have to improve to win this hand a large percentage of the time.

On a flop like the one you got, I would then proceed to check-fold most of the time, occasionally calling if I thought I might get a free card on the turn or I felt I needed to mix up my play a bit.

As you played preflop and the flop, I like the turn play.

Luke

[andyfox]

"an aggresive player on the button who is gonna try to win the pot with or without a hand a lot of the time."

If that's the type of player you're against, then I think the value of 3-betting pre-flop goes down quite a bit. Becasue now you "feel obligated to go ahead and bet the turn again" and he's gonna either have a hand or make a play at the pot and there you are with queen high out of position.

While I am not quite Angeloic in my blind play, the more I think about Tommy's posts about it, the more I like a KISS line of play: big hand, big bets; medium hand, medium bets; no hand, no bets.

Then again, there's no dishonor in 3-betting pre-flop and then checking the flop. Sometimes they'll even put you on a monster when you do that and check behind.

Just some thoughts . . .

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to thnik being out of position is just too much of a disadvange to three bet this hand here.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think so. especially from SB. i'd call most of the time so that BB will come in with trash too.

[ QUOTE ]
I hate checking the turn here since I cant win a showdown,

[/ QUOTE ]

if u feel u cannot win a show down, then there is one more reason not to 3 bet him before the flop, because you are likely behind.

with all that said, however, you might want to just throw in the 3 bets btf once in awhile to discourage him from robbing your blinds too freely. the key is not to get carried away with this play.

Kenny

[Turning Stone Pro]

Gotta agree with Paluka here. I like the call from the SB. This is certainly going to be a heads up situation if you 3 bet, and you are out of position against an A or K, in all liklihood.

I call, go for a check raise if you hit the flop with either a Q or J, or any flush or open ended straight draw.

TSP