Party 3/6: A flopped TP + turned flush draw...

[chesspain]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Although this is my first hand at the table, I am already familiar with UTG+1, who is somewhat loose-aggressive preflop and average/passive post-flop, and with the SB, who is a LAG. I'm not confident of my play on any street from the flop forward. I welcome any comments.

Preflop: chesspain is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. chesspain posts a blind of $3.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, chesspain (poster) checks, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, chesspain checks.

River: (6 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, chesspain calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12 BB, between chesspain and SB.</font>

[craig r]

You should bet the turn. You have 9 outs to the flush, plus a Jack or 8 will most likely give you the best hand as well. And you might be in first place anyways.

You definitely should cap the river.

craig

[joker122]

given your read, i'd cap the river with the 3rd nut flush.

[wuwei]

I keep trying to think of a reason not to bet the turn, but I can't come up with anything that outweighs:

- your hand is probably the best hand
- you just picked up a very nice redraw

There's also the chance that you take the pot down right there, although your reads imply this is a very slim chance.

[Brunger]

You raised the flop because I assume you thought you had the best hand. I don't understand the turn check given that you caught a very favorable card. You could very well be ahead and if not drawing very live if you want to check the river is the place to do it(unimproved). Depending on how laggy this player is capping the river is reasonable because it certainly doesn't look like a flush.

[ecooke]

I really like the Flop raise.
Check the Turn fearing a c/r? Not consistent with your read so I'm confused.
River gets a lot harder with no Turn bet.

[chesspain]

I guess everyone thinks I should have bet the turn. Obviously, I checked it through because even with all of my outs I wanted to avoid having to call a checkraise, although maybe I needed to risk this, especially if there was a chance of my taking the pot down right there.

I don't know if the case for a river cap is as clear-cut...am I really going to be good here more than 50% of the time after I am three-bet?

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if the case for a river cap is as clear-cut...am I really going to be good here more than 50% of the time after I am three-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe so, yes. You checked the turn through last to act, indicating weakness. There is a wide range of hands that the lag will 3-bet here, possibly any 2 pair.

[27offsooot]

I don't see how SB could cold call two flop bets with a backdoor flush draw in an unraised pot. Only hands that would make sense with that would be 6d7d or Ad3d. Ad3d seems to be the only hand u would lose to, so I cap the river. Villain could easily have a slow played set or two pair. I probably would have checked the turn too when u have outs and villain cold-calling two would scare me some.

[sthief09]

I agree. he's probably got a set or something and missed a turn check-raise. the fact that he's a LAg makes it an amazingly easy cap

[chesspain]

SB showed 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the lower flush, and MHIG.

[Festus22]

Cap the river. There's only a 10% chance that he holds A or Q-x /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Plus the flush hit backdoor.

As for betting the turn, no biggie one way or the other.

[Cerril]

I think the turn raise is painfully easy. Even if you get checkraised, you can easily improve to what's probably the best hand (and if you do get check raised, you can be certain you're either ahead now or can improve to the flush - he can't have both. The 3d would be the only card to scare you and that not much).

On the river, I would cap but only because it closes the action. If there were 5 bets max I wouldn't risk the A or Q forcing one more out of you. With T8, I'd call the third bet so I can't say it's purely automatic to cap here.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
As for betting the turn, no biggie one way or the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont think theres any chance that betting the turn gets a better 8 to fold?

[Cerril]

Not against your average party player, not against your average 2+2er, and certainly not against a LAG. A better 8, especially one with a diamond overcard (Q or A) is looking at five almost pristine outs against a bare king, but the vast majority of players aren't even going to think that far, they'll think 'flopped top pair, he probably didn't have that one card'

[Cerril]

Anything that gives a gutshot would be calling here most of the time from a loose postflop player. For that matter, I've seen enough bare backdoor draws see the turn just in case to never put any two that match a board suit going that far. Two bets probably means a gutshot or better though, unless it's something like an overcard (two safe and two dangerous) and something in the mix or a 3. But there are a lot of possible gutshots there that are complete junk, and I wouldn't even put a backdoor straight/backdoor flush past someone loose enough.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
Not against your average party player, not against your average 2+2er, and certainly not against a LAG. A better 8, especially one with a diamond overcard (Q or A) is looking at five almost pristine outs against a bare king, but the vast majority of players aren't even going to think that far, they'll think 'flopped top pair, he probably didn't have that one card'

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah prolly not. i was referring to UTG+1 though, who chess labeled as passive postflop. but still i agree with you.

[Festus22]

[ QUOTE ]
You dont think theres any chance that betting the turn gets a better 8 to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. But then you're talking only A-8 or Q-8 which is a mightly small range of hands you MAY fold off. Then weight that against the possibility that the king help someone or you're being setup for a checkraise by something that beats you which you have to call.

I think why betting the turn decision is close is the value betting aspect of my 8, not folding a better hand. I personally think betting the turn and taking a free showdown is a smidge better than checking and then calling a river blank. But like I said, it's probably very close in the long run one way or the other.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess everyone thinks I should have bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me. With a LAG to act immediately behind you I'd rather check here too. This is a spot where I absolutely hate getting checkraised.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if the case for a river cap is as clear-cut...am I really going to be good here more than 50% of the time after I am three-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah. No one puts you on the rizzle-rizzle frush. And the LAG makes it so much easier.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Not me. With a LAG to act immediately behind you I'd rather check here too. This is a spot where I absolutely hate getting checkraised.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? with 14 outs putting in 2BB on the turn to win at least 10BB is ok with me.

--turnipmonster

[sfer]

I don't think you induce two folds often enough to make up for the times you get checkraised/call/fold unimproved on the river.

[J.R.]

"I don't think you induce two folds often enough to make up for the times you get checkraised/call/fold unimproved on the river."

What about betting your probable best hand for value, thinking about the "L" aspect and not just the "AG" aspect of the sb LAG?

[sfer]

Yeah there's that. Cut me a break--I'm hopped up on Day Quil and I feel like my head is going to explode. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif