94s in the BB

[PokerBob]

I feel like I did everything right here, but after all it IS a crap hand. Please comment.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (8.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, UTG folds.

River: (10.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.25 BB, between MP3 and Hero.</font>

[Lurker4]

I think it looks ok for the most part. I don't think you can fold this w/top pair and backdoor flush draw in a decent sized pot against what could just be overcards. I'd consider checkraising the flop to try to fold overcards and see if PFR has an overpair or just overcards, but I do that too often and its probably a leak. Also, this board might be too draw heavy to do that. Turn is fine, as you are now behind almost all legitimate raising hands except for KQ/KJ. I'd probably c/r this river as PFR has been leading flop and turn and probably won't slow down if checked to, and will only call a bet if he doesnt have you beat.

[Ajax410]

C/R the flop.

3-bet the river.

Alex

[JordanIB]

Am I the only one who folds pre-flop?

[kenberman]

Fold pre-flop.

I might check/raise the flop. You have a huge drawing hand -I count 8 clean outs.

It looks like the A /images/graemlins/club.gif helps both of you. You are now drawing to 4 2's for a straight, 8 other clubs for a flush, 2 nines for trips, and 3 4's for 2 pair. That's a lot - somewhere between 12 and 17 outs. Still, I probably just call the turn.

3 bet the river.

[Peter Harris]

You said it yourself it's a crap hand - why call a raise with it?

this flop is BEGGING for a c/r. Raise/3-bet the river.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[Ajax410]

I think this is a pretty legitimate pre-flop call - Hero is getting a ton of money from the pot, assuming all limpers call (which they almost always do).

Alex

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
You said it yourself it's a crap hand - why call a raise with it?


[/ QUOTE ]

It is a crap hand, but when the action gets back to me there is already 8SB in the pot. I read somewhere (if I am wrong please let me know) that flopping a 4 flush is 1:8. I feel I had odds to call here. Thoughts?

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
read somewhere (if I am wrong please let me know) that flopping a 4 flush is 1:8

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. Given the probable action behind you, a call looks ok, now that I think about it.

[JordanIB]

I'm folding mostly because I don't feel confident in my ability to +EV play 94s after the flop.

[Peter Harris]

flopping a flush draw is 9-1 i thought.

Then you have to complete it. that's only 35% of the time.
Then your 9-hi flush can lose to a higher 2-card flush, sometimes the board comes 4 of your suit and you lose, sometimes you totally miss, sometimes you catch one pair and if it's Aces that's good. your 9's are frequently no good by the river.

I honestly cannot see this as a good preflop call and it's one i wouldn't make. Really, is this good? SSHE says in a loose game you can play the same hands you would from LP for one bet, which goes down to suited one-gappers eg 53s. 94s is NOT in this bracket, it's a junk suited hand.

If someone really disagrees with me, straighten me out! but i honestly think a call here is totally -EV.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone really disagrees with me, straighten me out! but i honestly think a call here is totally -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's close. (how's that for flip-flopping...in this thread alone I have said "fold, call, and it's close"...soon I'll recommend raising).

I don't think it's a huge leak either way, b/c you are talking about 1 small bet getting good odds, and it's a very easy hand to get away from if you miss the flop. Then again, I am a big ole /images/graemlins/smile.gif in PT, which means my VP$IP is higher than most (or all) of the regular posters here.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
C/R the flop.

3-bet the river.

Alex

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

I Really, is this good? SSHE says in a loose game you can play the same hands you would from LP for one bet, which goes down to suited one-gappers eg 53s. 94s is NOT in this bracket, it's a junk suited hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE also says that from the SB you should complete with any 2 suited cards if there are enough players. I guess I figured the pot-odds were about the same.

[Peter Harris]

I see your p.o.v, and i guess this is so close to +EV/0EV/-EV that the difference between playing it and folding it is pretty close.

I would dispute pokerbob's premise that completing in the SB and calling a raise in the BB getting similar odds is okay because their is a world of difference between an unraised pot and a raised pot, and for that reason i fold this PF.

Seem like a nice compromise? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,
Pete Harris

[Entity]

Preflop is close because you aren't closing the action, but I think it's probably not bad.

Like others have said, checkraise the flop and 3-bet the river.

Rob

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

I would dispute pokerbob's premise that completing in the SB and calling a raise in the BB getting similar odds is okay because their is a world of difference between an unraised pot and a raised pot, and for that reason i fold this PF.


[/ QUOTE ]

I may be nuts for saying this, but.......

Is it not true that I am still getting around 11:1 on my PF call, regardless if the pot is raised or not? I understand that a RAISED pot means that there are probably stronger hands out there, but I still feel that I am obligated to see the flop getting such odds (assuming it is only costing me 1 more bet.)

If the flop hits me (i.e. brings 4 to the flush), are not my implied odds HUGE as there are not many players in the pot and I am 35% to hit my flush by the river? I realize that I may be up agaisnt a bigger flush if I make my hand and maybe a 4-flush on the board counterfeits my hand, but even then I have to believe that I have around 25% pot equity.

Please set me straight if I am nuts and explain why.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I would dispute pokerbob's premise that completing in the SB and calling a raise in the BB getting similar odds is okay because their is a world of difference between an unraised pot and a raised pot, and for that reason i fold this PF.


[/ QUOTE ]

I may be nuts for saying this, but.......

Is it not true that I am still getting around 11:1 on my PF call, regardless if the pot is raised or not? I understand that a RAISED pot means that there are probably stronger hands out there, but I still feel that I am obligated to see the flop getting such odds (assuming it is only costing me 1 more bet.)

If the flop hits me (i.e. brings 4 to the flush), are not my implied odds HUGE as there are not many players in the pot and I am 35% to hit my flush by the river? I realize that I may be up agaisnt a bigger flush if I make my hand and maybe a 4-flush on the board counterfeits my hand, but even then I have to believe that I have around 25% pot equity.

Please set me straight if I am nuts and explain why.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what about the 65% of the time you don't hit your flush draw? In this case you had top pair with no kicker. In an unraised pot, your pair of 9s is probably leading. In a raised one, who knows. Just trying to make an argument of why a raised versus an unraised pot is still important even when you're making a 11:1 pre-flop call.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I would dispute pokerbob's premise that completing in the SB and calling a raise in the BB getting similar odds is okay because their is a world of difference between an unraised pot and a raised pot, and for that reason i fold this PF.


[/ QUOTE ]

I may be nuts for saying this, but.......

Is it not true that I am still getting around 11:1 on my PF call, regardless if the pot is raised or not? I understand that a RAISED pot means that there are probably stronger hands out there, but I still feel that I am obligated to see the flop getting such odds (assuming it is only costing me 1 more bet.)

If the flop hits me (i.e. brings 4 to the flush), are not my implied odds HUGE as there are not many players in the pot and I am 35% to hit my flush by the river? I realize that I may be up agaisnt a bigger flush if I make my hand and maybe a 4-flush on the board counterfeits my hand, but even then I have to believe that I have around 25% pot equity.

Please set me straight if I am nuts and explain why.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what about the 65% of the time you don't hit your flush draw? In this case you had top pair with no kicker. In an unraised pot, your pair of 9s is probably leading. In a raised one, who knows. Just trying to make an argument of why a raised versus an unraised pot is still important even when you're making a 11:1 pre-flop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point completely, as I made the call because of the hands flush value, not it's ability to make TP or some raggedy 2 pair.

[Peter Harris]

and 94s's flush value is exponentially lower than suited connectors, 1-gaps and A/K-hi suited. Which is why this is sooooooo marginal a call, in a raised pot, that i wouldn't call preflop.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[hustalasta]

[ QUOTE ]
I see your p.o.v, and i guess this is so close to +EV/0EV/-EV that the difference between playing it and folding it is pretty close.

[/ QUOTE ]

is it close? Hero is getting 12.5 to 1 implied odds on the pre-flop call. Against 5 random hands 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif wins approx. 16%.

Against 5 opponents with the hands (somewhat typical example?):
A /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif
K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif wins approx. 11.5%

replace the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (so hero is outkicked) &amp; also
replace J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif with J /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif (higher flush)

Hero still wins approx. 8% of the time

Win % based on 100,000 hand sample size using Turbo Tex Hold 'em

P.S. In the pre-flop hand quiz section of SSHE it says to call liberally with suited hands from the BB for 1 bet.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
and 94s's flush value is exponentially lower than suited connectors, 1-gaps and A/K-hi suited. Which is why this is sooooooo marginal a call, in a raised pot, that i wouldn't call preflop.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair 94s flush value is the same as 98s or 97s, maybe even the same as AKs given that flush over flush is uncommon.

[Peter Harris]

I still think playing for weak flush value is a naff idea, at least with 98s/97s over 94s is that a straight can bail you out. I just wouldn't waste a SB on something as terribly marginal as this.

We need Ed to adjudicate, i think we have the call/fold camp currently headlocking one another.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[Peter Harris]

but there is still the problem with connecting to the flop and THEN playing the turn and river, the effective odds are terrible...

I suppose the arguments over preflop are usually endless, at least most of us agree on the postflop play!!

Regards,
Pete Harris

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
We need Ed to adjudicate, i think we have the call/fold camp currently headlocking one another.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is Ed. spider is my best friend so I am posting using his account. Focus on the f'in postflop game if your preflop game is solid except for this decision. That is all.

The lack of a river 3-bet is a much more costly error than the PF call/fold decision. I probably call PF if I don't think anyone will LRR. 96s is much better than 94s tho, so a fold is fine too.

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose the arguments over preflop are usually endless, at least most of us agree on the postflop play!!

[/ QUOTE ]

jeez.. you preempted my fun..

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
We need Ed to adjudicate, i think we have the call/fold camp currently headlocking one another.


[/ QUOTE ]

actually, I'm straddling quit nicely between the 2 camps. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I think the line is pretty thin either way - if you are pretty confident you'll get 3 callers behind you, the pot is laying great odds. But you certainly don't want to get stuck calling a re-raise to see the flop.

I'm leaning towards calling, b/c I don't think it's too hard a hand to play post-flop, and the pot odds are (likely) in your favor.

[Peter Harris]

heh cheers "Ed".

*NEXT TOPIC!*

Pete H.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who folds pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would, but I'm 2bb/100. /images/graemlins/smile.gif