some fairly common situations

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Assume a typcial Party 15/30 crowd

you limp on the button with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif after 4 limpers. sb completes. bb checks. 7 players in for 7 small bets.

flop 1: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
checked to you. what do you do?

and does your decision change much if the board were:
flop 2: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

ok how about this...
flop 3: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
checked around.

turn: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
checked to you again. your action?

[Stork]

I don't play 15/30, but if I did...
Hand 1 I would check, hand 2 i would bet. Mainly because on the turn, you are giving your opponents much worse pot odds, where on the flop, many of them would probably be more inclined to call, and maybe correctly, which isn't what you want with bottom pair and a backdoor draw.

[bisonbison]

flop 1: check. I don't think it's close with that many opponents.

flop 2: I think this is close. how likely am I to get a free card on the turn in this game? I would probably bet.

turn 3: bet.

[MarkD]

Flop 1:
This is a check. Even though all of your opponents checked you probably do not have the best hand and if you do have the best hand it is tenuous at best. If you bet you are going to be called in multiple spots and your opponents are sure to be getting correct odds on those calls. Check it and re-evaluate on the turn.

Flop 2:
The hand is very similar to flop 1 but now you have backdoor diamonds. I probably bet here, but I really doubt there is much of a difference between checking and betting. It is much more likely that the turn will improve your hand here though.

Flop 3:
This is a clear bet. It is much more likely that you have the best hand. A lot of your opponents are going to fold hands that have lots of outs against yours and collectively you want people to fold. Giving a free card here will often cost you the pot when you are ahead. Bet.

edit: These situations are really not all that common IMO.

[sthief09]

I check in all 3 spots. for 1 and 2, I feel the chance that you get check-raised is too high, and the chance you get a free river card if you bet is too low.

and bet your trips

[Cerril]

1: check. With six to act in front of me there's a good chance one of the first three has a better 5, a 9, or a weak J. If the game is highly aggressive I'll still check but bet an undercard.

2: Check for the same reasons, bet if the game is highly aggressive -and- straightforward. This hand would like to see a turn but not like to see a checkraise.

3: Check with intent to fold unless I see a 5 or 8 on the river (i.e. undercards don't make this worthwhile). EP kings tend to check-raise here and EP tens would be sorely tempted to, not to mention the pocket 6-8s. Regardless, there are a wide variety of hands that call down here and still beat me. I feel a little weak-tight but I don't feel investing a BB here is profitable.

Incidentally, SSH classifies all of these as 'large pots' so there should be more aggression with marginal hands. Honestly, I'm not seeing 'marginal hand' anywhere here, these all seem pretty crappy, even with the passive action. The backdoor straight, backdoor flush draw in the second hand is the only thing that might drive it to a bet, but I'm still thinking you benefit more from a free card than anyone else in the hand (i.e. I think losing bets is far more likely than being in a circumstance where you have or would have the second best hand with a better 5 folding to your flop bet)

[vanHelsing]

I dont like my holding. Would it be a wrong to fold PF here?

[AdamL]

I don't know the 15/30 crowd, so these answers may be a bit off. (Hell, they're from me -- of course they're off.)

But from my perspective (i.e., clueless), I would check the first two and fold to a turn bet unimproved. Someone in early position could have a 9 and I probably won't get them to fold. Besides that, a weak jack and a straight draw are out there, and I can't fire more than one bullet with such a weak holding.

In the third hand, I'd bet. I think I have the best hand here. I might get called by a flush draw but probably won't get lead into on the river, and will check it through.

[Cerril]

I was thinking the same thing... I suppose at your typical 15/30 table playing cards like this in situations like this gains bets from deception when you hit that make up for the small chance you -will- hit.

[Danenania]

Flop 1: I check for reasons listed in above posts.
Flop 2: I bet because my equity is better and I want a free turn card and I like betting.
Flop 3: Easy bet. I'd bet any pair here.

[Danenania]

Yes, with this many limpers 85s will make money from the button if played well postflop.

[bunky9590]

Flops 1 and 2, check behind.

Situation three? bet between heartbeats.

[Cerril]

I don't suppose anyone would care to give me their thoughts on this one? A better 5 is coming along, as is a T or K that got checked on the flop and turn... the K can probably be discounted unless it's something like K3 from a very timid or passive player. I can easily see Kx from SB or BB hoping to get through the minefield behind them safely.

On the other hand, spades are coming along and you certainly want them to. Of course, overcard spades have uncomfortably many outs against you.

Is having no interest in this hand whatsoever a substantially -EV general case (i.e. is betting behind 6 checks with fourth pair going to have you raking a pot that often?)

And does that mean that if an overcard spade hit and it was checked to you in the first two examples, you'd also bet without hesitation?

[Rico Suave]

CDC:

Hand 1...check. I think you will get c/r fairly often.

Hand 2....check. I am surprised that people who advocate a check on hand 1 would bet hand 2. The backdoor flush does not add that much value, and the chances of getting c/r have not changed...and it still would suck to get c/r. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the forum has really started to emphasize backdoor draws lately...perhaps too much.

Hand 3...Bet.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
turn 3: bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Bison... a lot of posters gave the same responses as you (or close, anyways) but I thought I'd just respond here. Can we talk more about the bet in Hand 3?

Hand 1 and 2, the difference is easy, with the backdoor flush draw. In Hand 2, a bet is designed to get you to the river for free if you don't improve on the turn or pick up a diamon. And from what I understand from the posts, the difference between the value in seeing the free river (if you get it) with the backdoor draw moves Hand 2 to a bet as opposed to Hand 1 with no BD flush.

But for me, and I suspect a lot of posters here, Hand 3 is a mystery -- this is the only hand where you actually have nothing, and yet most posters are advocating a bet. Is this because in the 30 game a king would have bet, and we're hoping to make a pure bluff at this? Whereas with the other hands, players will draw at their overcard?

Assuming the five didn't come as CDC said, in Hand 3 do you fire again? And I'm assuming you would simply fold to a CR in Hand 3...

ElSapo

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3 is a mystery -- this is the only hand where you actually have nothing, and yet most posters are advocating a bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I read it as everyone (including yourself) checked the flop, and you have a pair of 5's and are making the decision on the turn in Hand #3 after it has been checked to you.

[Lost Wages]

It has been checked to you on the button twice. Anyone with a K,T, flush draw or straight draw would have bet by now (the 15/30 game is aggressive). Even though you have a large number of opponents, a bet will fold most if not all of them.

The only problem that I see with betting is that you really can't represent anything.

Lost Wages

[Rico Suave]

Lost wages:

[ QUOTE ]
The only problem that I see with betting is that you really can't represent anything.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think this is a snag in the bet line. Knowing that a bet looks suspicious here, I would imagine that you might be c/r at the 15 game (I do not play that high) quite a bit by a worse hand. So if you do bet, you really are committed to calling a c/r and river bet (without a specific read, of course).....no? (edit: assuming it is HU on the river)


--Rico

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
Lost wages:

[ QUOTE ]
The only problem that I see with betting is that you really can't represent anything.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think this is a snag in the bet line. Knowing that a bet looks suspicious here, I would imagine that you might be c/r at the 15 game (I do not play that high) quite a bit by a worse hand. So if you do bet, you really are committed to calling a c/r and river bet (without a specific read, of course).....no? (edit: assuming it is HU on the river)


--Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

You're gonna call a checkraise with 8-high, and then call the likely turn and river bets with 5s? This can't be a winning line unless you've got an opponenet who will check-raise and -continue- to bet with ace-high. Remember, on the flop you have nothing, unless this hand was edited or something. In the third version, you pick up a pair on the turn. If he'd CR and continue to bet his 2s, then I dunno.

I understand the bet, but if I get CR'd it's not looking good I feel like.

ElSapo

[Luke]

Flop 1: Check - that board hit way too many limpers so most are going to take another card off and even if you are ahead, you most likely won't be after the turn card.

Flop 2: Check - the backdoor flush doesn't change the situation that much here.

Turn 3: Bet - fold if CRed - take a free showdown if you can.

Luke

[Rico Suave]

El Sapo;
[ QUOTE ]
You're gonna call a checkraise with 8-high, and then call the likely turn and river bets with 5s?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I htink you are misreading the action. I will bet my pair of 5's on the button on the turn when it has been checked to me on both the flop (which I checked) and the turn. Lost Wages was saying that the one problem with betting the turn in this spot is that you really aren't representing anything. I speculated that at the 15 game, you could be c/r (since your bet does not look threatening at all) by a worse hand here often; and so does that put you in a spot where you might have to call down...getting around 3.5:1 effective odds to do so.

--Rico

[ElSapo]

Maybe I misread you... this:

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I think this is a snag in the bet line. Knowing that a bet looks suspicious here, I would imagine that you might be c/r at the 15 game (I do not play that high) quite a bit by a worse hand. So if you do bet, you really are committed to calling a c/r and river bet (without a specific read, of course).....no? (edit: assuming it is HU on the river)


[/ QUOTE ]

and...

[ QUOTE ]
I will bet my pair of 5's on the button on the turn when it has been checked to me on both the flop (which I checked) and the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

...seem different to me. I had thought we were discussing a flop bet in the third situation. If you bet the flop, which numerous posters said it, and are checkraised, I don't see how you can possibly call. Frankly, if you check and get checked to on the turn and bet the 5, and then are checkraised, I hate that also seeing as I have no kicker to go with my 5.

ElSapo

[Rico Suave]

El Sapo:

[ QUOTE ]
I had thought we were discussing a flop bet in the third situation

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I was discussing a turn bet (on both counts) on hand 3 as prompted by:

[ QUOTE ]
ok how about this...
flop 3: K T 2
checked around.

turn: 5
checked to you again. your action?


[/ QUOTE ]

--Rico

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
No, I was discussing a turn bet (on both counts) on hand 3

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhhh. My bad.

[Danenania]

I disagree that the backdoor flush draw is a minor advantage. In Hand 1 a bet would be bad because you will have a hard time forcing people out and your hand is vulnerable. There is some chance you have the best hand on this board, but you're involved in a reverse implied odds situation. Say you bet and get called in 3 places which is a fairly likely outcome. Now out of the 47 cards that can come on the turn, only 5 clearly help you. 42 of them don't. In addition to winning the hand less in general, you will also end up folding the turn a lot if you don't hit an 8 or 5 and someone bets into you which hurts equity more.

In Hand 2, however, the effects of the reverse implied odds are greatly diminished. There are now 10 more turn cards that clearly help you. So our unhelpful outs have gone from 42 in Hand 1 to 32 here, giving an almost 25% better chance of liking what you see. This also means you will be seeing the river about 25% more often when someone bets the turn in front of you, giving you extra chances to hit an 8 or 5 in addition to your flush. I'm still not sure if a bet is best in Hand 2, but I do think the backdoor flush draw makes a significant difference.