can i get away from this hand on the turn

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

[Shillx]

Check/raise the flop. Why did you bet out???????
With 2 more people left to act behind you, you either have to fold or check/raise the turn IMO. Usually fold.

Brad

[DMBFan23]

fold the turn? CO could show me pocket Aces and I wouldn't fold. unless I had a read on the players still to act as tricky players who would check raise, I have 5 pretty clean outs (discussion below), it's 9.25-1 to me, and that will likely get inflated when the people behind me call. I also have some implied odds.


(our outs are pretty clean, unless we fear T8 or KT here, but the overlay from the pot, the implied odds from CO, and the checkers occasionally calling makes up for that IMO)


I do agree with a flop check raise though.

[btspider]

CO probably has JJ+ or AJ/KJs. we aren't drawing too well against those.

[DMBFan23]

JJ or QQ have us in a bit of trouble, yes.

EDIT: we aren't doing so well against AJ either. crap.

[Shillx]

The hero posted the entire hand (which is the problem). He should have cut it off at the turn desicion. Calling looks very attractive when you see that the players behind our hero didn't raise. Maybe you can get away with making calls like this in micro, but it certainly is not a good habit to get into.

Brad

[KryogeniK]

I have just finished the first read of SSHE, and from what I've learned from reading about flop play in EP, is that you either build a pot, or try and protect your hand, all depending on the table.
In this hand, you have 4 players, in which one raised PF.
If the table is pretty loose, and you have a pretty awesome hand, then betting out on the flop is what I'd do, but your hand isn't awesome. You have top pair and a backdoor flush, but your kicker isn't brilliant. Someone else may have limped with a J too, and the raiser may even have you dominated with an overpair or AK/AQ/AJ etc. If he's an LPP, then you have to consider that he might have a good hand PF. Check the flop, hoping he bets out, and reraise. You can't really afford to let the others who limped in get the right odds to call with a possible straight draw just in case it helps them.
Check-raising the flop means they have to call 2 bets cold, meaning it would be an incorrect call for them (dead money).
The turn card is a rag, still leaving you with TP, but no flush.
Check the turn, and seriously consider if you're beaten.
You have 5 outs to the river assuming he's not holding a J/Q.
Your bet on the flop meant you had the correct odds (just) to call, but had you check-raised the turn, forcing the limpers out, you could happily fold if you thought you were dominated by the CO as your pot odds would be lower (5-1).

Dan

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

Flop checkraise is a play I hadn't considered, and a good one considering my relative position to the CO.

Here's the question: if you checkraise and the CO calls, do you lead the turn if a blank falls?

Also, if he 3-bets the c/r it is an easy check/fold on the turn if I don't improve.

[Shillx]

If you checkraise and the CO calls, of course you bet the turn.
If he 3-bets then you have to decide what is best on the turn based on the # of players still in the pot and the pot size. The typical play would probably be to see the river and fold there if you don't improve.

Brad

[GrunchCan]

I see no action that convinces me that CO has JJ or any other hand that beats Hero. He could just as easily have TT, AK, QT, A9...

I don't like the flop checkraise, although I am challenged to elaborate as to why. It just seems like a very risky manuver considering the size of the pot, hero's absolute position and the number of opponents. We also don't have any reads on either villan or the 2 other opponents. Too much could go wrong with the checkraise for my tastes. I bet right out on the flop and 3-bet it when the villan raises me.

[jrz1972]

The check-raise would be risky if there hadn't been a pfr.

In this case, there's about a 90% chance that if you check, it will get checked around to CO who will bet whether he hit the flop or not. It's real easy to predict how this flop is going to play out.

If you don't check-raise here, you'll never check-raise any flop.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

I don't think this hand is strong enough to 3-bet when the PFR raises me on the flop.

My reasoning for betting out was because I believed there was a good chance I had the best hand, and a lot of the time a preflop raiser at .5/1 will clam up and just call when they miss the flop. Therefore, when I was raised on the flop I figured there was about a 90% chance he was holding AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AJs (maybe AJo). In retrospect I think the flop checkraise is a slightly better play because it would give me an even more reliable read on the strength of CO's hand.