Spewing or solid aggressive?

[BottlesOf]

This is kind of old, so if I had reads, I don't anymore. I'm not so sure they matter here, as this situation os common enough.

Paradise Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (9 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 11 BB, between BB and Hero.</font>

[Tosh]

I fold the flop.

[BottlesOf]

Bet/fold or check/fold?

[gaming_mouse]

Me too. Why were you getting so aggressive with A9o?

gm

[Tosh]

Bet fold.

[Moyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Me too. Why were you getting so aggressive with A9o?

gm

[/ QUOTE ]

It's that crazy 6 handed crap. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I think w/ 3 callers, it's close, but I bet the flop too. I don't see how you can call the raise though. Unless you're playing with a real maniac, that ace is the only thing you can hope for.

[Redd]

Hey, I'm a newbie on loan from the micro forums, so this might be over my head. But:

1) Why does the Hero raise pf here? Is he trying to fold out the BB?

2) Under what circumstances would you call it? And,

3) How many callers before you would it take for you to fold pf?

Redd

[BottlesOf]

1. Yes., although it would probably have been better had the limper been mp or especially LP. The position of a sole limper combined with the tightness of the BB factor in whether or not this is a raise or call. As such, it was probably a mistake, although perhaps I had some read, I can't remember.

2. I'm not sure what you're asking here. If you're tlaking about preflop, then pretty much all unraised pots.

3. Probably never, it would need to be raised.

[djoyce003]

this is really more specific to 6 handed...and should be in the headsup and short handed forum. He is raising because in 6 handed, with one limper folded to you, he probably has the best hand. This is much more specific to 6 handed than a full ring game and shouldn't be in this forum confusing people. That being said, it should have been folded on the flop, was played well once he spiked the ace.

[BottlesOf]

I think you're wrong.

This was NOT at a 6 max table. It was a full table, with people sitting out/not there. I would play it the same in a 10 handed table if the limper were as close to the button.

No one's getting confused. People who don't already, should consider raising hands they otherwise complete when there's just one limper.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
No one's getting confused. People who don't already, should consider raising hands they otherwise complete when there's just one limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Johnny,

I agree with your general point, but I don't think A9o is a good hand to apply it with. According to the pokerroom.com EV stats, A9o is -EV in the SB almost across the board. Of course your postflop will be better than the average player's, so you might be able to squeeze some pennies out of it, but I think it's at best a marginal proposition. (I pokerstove'd it too, and A9o is 31% equity against 4 random hands.)

gm

[J.R.]

"According to the pokerroom.com EV stats, A9o is -EV in the SB almost across the board."

how many hands do you think show a profit from the small blind?

I pokerstove'd it too, and A9o is 31% equity against 4 random hands.

What does this have to do with the situation at hand (versus 2 opponents)? He will win the pot quite often before the river on shreer aggression alone.

[BottlesOf]

SSH says this is a play from the SB. So I play it. Perhaps I should consider folding it when there are between 2-4 players, as the pre flop assumes a multiway.

However, against a weak limper and tight blind, I think a pf raise and flop bet will take it down often enough.

[Joe Tall]

I don't always raise preflop here but I do it often enough, especially with a tight-BB.

As for calling the flop raise? Nah, muck that cheese.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
SSH says this is a play from the SB. So I play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does it say that? I couldn't find it.

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should consider folding it when there are between 2-4 players, as the pre flop assumes a multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think A9o would play better short-handed, though I still think it's marginal. Are you saying you think it's better multiway? Could you explain?

Thanks
gm

[BottlesOf]

It's definitely better short-handed (hu being ideal and to a lesser extent 3 handed). However, if you have a lot of limpers, your odds preflop become very favorable. I'm not sure how to calculate the odds of flopping 2 pr. or trips, but someone more math-inclined than I can do it. Add that to the time you'll hit top pair and have it hold up (not reeeally likely, but it will happen) and you've probably got enough.

As it turns out, I remember SSH wrong. Pages 81 and 83 say AT and up, not A9. However, I can't imagine the difference is huge.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how to calculate the odds of flopping 2 pr. or trips, but someone more math-inclined than I can do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I can do, and the odds are so bad that it should never be a consideration for you (keep in mind you could make this argument for any two cards, though I'll grant that an A two pair is a special case). Anyway, the odds are 1 in 50 of flopping two pair, even worse than that for flopping trips. You shouldn't be thinking in those terms about your equity.

[ QUOTE ]
Add that to the time you'll hit top pair and have it hold up (not reeeally likely, but it will happen)

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, in short-handed games (and maybe even beyond) I'd wager that most of the equity from this hand does come from having your top pair hold up.

[ QUOTE ]
However, I can't imagine the difference is huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, like I said, it's marginal, and I don't take too much issue with the way you played it, especially given your postflop skills. But personally I still prefer a fold.

gm

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, the odds are 1 in 50 of flopping two pair, even worse than that for flopping trips. You shouldn't be thinking in those terms about your equity.


[/ QUOTE ]


Really? this seems too low. Wehn ppl ask why to complete any 2 suited in the sb, the reason given is the probability of flopping 2 pr., trips, or a flushdraw/flush are enough. I can't imagine that if you take away the flush draw/flush, it changes things to such a dramatic extent.


Can you go ahead and show me your work? Or, if it's a lot of work, don't bother, I can do some searching

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine that if you take away the flush draw/flush, it changes things to such a dramatic extent.

[/ QUOTE ]

It absolutely, absolutely does.

Here's the work:

You have A9o. There are 50 cards left, which means nCr(50,3) = 19600 possible flops.

How many flops contain a two pair aces and nines?

3 aces left, 3 nines left, 44 cards which are neither an A nor a 9. This means 3*3*44=396 possible flops which make a two pair for you. So the probability of hitting is:

396/19600=.0202, which is about 1 in 50.

gm

[BottlesOf]

Yea, when you get all combinatorics on me, my head starts to hurt. I'll take your word for it.

Upon further reflection, it seems intuitive and logical that most of the hand's value comes from its one pair (top pair usually) value.

[sthief09]

I vote spewing

check-call turn, bet river. I'd also dump it on the flop because it's too tempting to call 2 bets if you turn a 9.

also, the preflop raise is one that I used to make but kind of stopped making recently.

EDIT: I just saw it's 6-handed so preflop is good