In A Street Fight

[The Dude]

In an open street fight, would you rather have a 12 inch crowbar or a 4 inch knife?

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
In an open street fight, would you rather have a 12 inch crowbar or a 4 inch knife?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would depend upon what my opponent has.

Maybe I'd like to have one of those Star Trek things with the long blade and the blunt bashing instrument all combined into one, without the audio.

Forget it. I'll take a gun.

That IS an option, right?

[The Dude]

I should clarify: Your opponent will have the other.

[nicky g]

How many people are you fighting? Againt one person, either will do (assuming my opponent is unarmed; if he's armed, as Rushmore says, it depends what he's armed with).

Against multiple opponents, definitely the crowbar.

[nicky g]

Ah I see. Hmmm. Probably the bar. If you use it well, you'll be able to keep him out of knifing range.

[knifeandfork]

dekniff your crowbar is too short

[Ray Zee]

knife wins

[Monkeyslacks]

Crowbar.

I could just spin around really fast and move in his general direction with the bar outstretched. No way he could counter this deadly move.

As an added bonus I'd probably have him off balance with laughing at me.

[ThaSaltCracka]

the [censored] knife man, I would go in their kamikaze like, take one good shot with the knife(probably take a hit from the crowbar too) stab him, and its over.

[nicky g]

" would go in their kamikaze like, take one good shot with the knife(probably take a hit from the crowbar too) stab him, and its over. "

If you take a hit from the crowbar it's over before you get to stab anyone. You're not going to simply be able to brush it off, especially if it's to the head or any joints.

[fsuplayer]

the 8 in length advantage is not enough to overcome the power of one stab with the knife.

now given the choice between a knife and a bar or bat, then thats a no-brainer.

[ThaSaltCracka]

sure, if he hits my head or joints that may be it, but thats a resonable chance to take, either way, I take the knife.

[mmbt0ne]

A well-thrown knife >>>> A well-thrown crowbar

[nicky g]

"either way i take the knife"

OK, I take the crowbar. Where are we doing this again? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

As for the knifethrowing point, true, but it's quite hard to throw a knife accurately and so that it hits pointy end first. And if you miss...

I think it's closer than you guys think. If you're at all handy with the bar you stand a good chance of hitting the opponent in a variety of places (head, hands, elbow etc) before he can get the knife in you. But the best point is probably that the bar isn't quite long enough to negate the advantage. If the bar was 50% longer, I would definitely take it.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
If the bar was 50% longer, I would definitely take it.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah me too, they make 18" and 24" crowbars, if they were available, I would take those easily.

[fnord_too]

Knife. The problem I have with the crow bar is that all the offensive manoevers I can think of with it are too slow and open, and would make me very vulnerable to a knife counterattack. Defensively, it is not that great, either. I think you need something with more of a range advantage or a speed advantage than a crowbar to make this close.

[The Dude]

This question came up an a Scategories type board game my family was playing awhile back, and I was surprised how many people in my family were arguing for the crowbar. Really, with a 12 inch crowbar I just don't see how you're going to do more than break my arm before I stab you.

[nicky g]

"Really, with a 12 inch crowbar I just don't see how you're going to do more than break my arm before I stab you."

Breaking your arm is going to seriously slow you down in your quest to stab the opponent, if only because of the pain. And if the crowbar wielder breaks the arm you're holding the knife in, you're going to drop it.

[ToneLoc]

Can't agrre more, there is a severe misunderstanding f the power of the crowbar here. A bit disappointing since this is a subject heavily documented through decade long of violent movies.
Another point I gree on: useless goiong for a 12' bar. All the pleasure comes from the length of the object...
Bottomline my (sentimental) vote goes to the crowbar.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Breaking your arm is going to seriously slow you down in your quest to stab the opponent, if only because of the pain. And if the crowbar wielder breaks the arm you're holding the knife in, you're going to drop it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Look, I can tell ahead of time which way he's going to be swinging the crowbar at me, and hold the knife in the other hand. If the crowbar were longer it might be a different story, but my blocking motion with one arm and stepping in to stab with the other can't be stopped. You have to open yourself up pretty big to swing a crowbar.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Knife. The problem I have with the crow bar is that all the offensive manoevers I can think of with it are too slow and open, and would make me very vulnerable to a knife counterattack. Defensively, it is not that great, either. I think you need something with more of a range advantage or a speed advantage than a crowbar to make this close.

[/ QUOTE ]Finally. someone with some sense. If course this is exactly why you take the knife. You have to swing the others. The knife gets inside your swing and you're done.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
"Really, with a 12 inch crowbar I just don't see how you're going to do more than break my arm before I stab you."

Breaking your arm is going to seriously slow you down in your quest to stab the opponent, if only because of the pain. And if the crowbar wielder breaks the arm you're holding the knife in, you're going to drop it.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is a life or death thing, I'd be more than willing to take the hit and break my other arm to get inside for one stab. And you're done!

[Non_Comformist]

I once was in a fight where the guy had a aluminum bat, I had a butterfly knife. I won. While not exactly the same situation, I would still go with the knife.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I wonder though, if you were left handed, would you be more inclined to take the crowbar. I say this because most people are right handed, thus they would attack with their right hand. If you were a left handed crow bar wielder, you could easily strike your opponents right hand, and disable him and the knife, think about it.

[tolbiny]

A 12" crowbar could be wielded with one hand, and he will still have the other hand free to attempt to block/deflect your thurst. Don't get me wrong, i take the knife, but it is closer than you make out.
Also, if i am a thinking player a slight feint would draw your blocking arm up and then i could actually thrust the bar at your face which would knock you backwards, using the bar as a thrusting weapon would be a dangerous gamble, but then again so is getting in a street fight against a guy with a knife.

[Ulysses]

Knife. You'll get one good shot at incapacitating me with the crowbar. For a lot of people, I suspect not having a crowbar might work out better vs. someone w/ the knife.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Knife. You'll get one good shot at incapacitating me with the crowbar. For a lot of people, I suspect not having a crowbar might work out better vs. someone w/ the knife.

[/ QUOTE ] I hadn't thought about that. Interesting point, and I think I agree.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
my blocking motion with one arm and stepping in to stab with the other can't be stopped.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing particularly unstoppable about a stabbing motion.

Also, your blocking motion won't necessarily really be a block, just a motion; if there's any power behind the crowbar swing it could be much more of simple crushing of your arm toward your body and complete unbalancing of your attack.

Besides, one thing people are overlooking is it takes more skill and timing to perceive and react to an attack than it does to launch and land one. You start a step behind, when you're on defense. And it assumes a lot to say that you can start a step behind and still win. That's why they say the best defense is a good offense. It assumes to much to think you can let the guy with the crowbar attack and you'll be able to stop it and do all kinds of funky stuff.

It also assumes that you need a big swing to use a short crowbar. You can knock someone out with just a few inches of movement of a blackjack.

That said, I'd probably feel more confident with a knife than a short crowbar, just because it's more foolproof. You can be an absolute idiot not get very lucky in a fight at all, and never land a solid blow or hit anything but an arm or leg, and a knife still makes you an incredibly dangerous opponent. Even a cut to the arm or a stab in the leg can make someone bleed to death very quickly.

I think you could have a very decent chance with a billy club or escrima stick. Those types of sticks can still break bones and crack skulls and arms and hands and wrists and shins, but you can move them very, very quickly. They're also longer than a 12-inch crowbar. The key to the club or stick is the reach advantage. Without question, it's extremely hard to even get near a guy who knows how to stick fight.

But to use a stick or club well, you need training. Not a lot, but at least a little. Again, any fool can use a knife and even use one as badly as it could possibly be used, and still wind up being the winner.

[Rob Blackburn]

The knife seems more lethal in theory if you can use it properly. I would say the majority of whom you will fight will not know how to use it properly, so let them have the knife and I take the crowbar.

I think you can defend easier with the crowbar and when you get the opportunity get in a quick strike to the head and I am pretty sure the fight is over.

[Ogre]

Rocket launcher / Sniper rifle combo

[chabibi]

I agree, you take a shattered arm to stick the blade in his body

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, you take a shattered arm to stick the blade in his body

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus, you can run with a shattered arm to live another day. With a leaking gut, unless you get a doctor, it's going to be a long slow painfull death. It's not going to be an easy fight. If the knife doesn't cover his head or hesitates... he's done.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]

If this is a life or death thing, I'd be more than willing to take the hit and break my other arm to get inside for one stab. And you're done!

[/ QUOTE ]

A stab from a 4-inch knife is almost certainly not going to be so perfectly placed as to be instantly fatal or debilitating.

You get someone in the neck, or the heart, and they're instantly dead. But the arm, shoulder, leg, even a glancing stab to the face, and they're going to beat your brain in with the crowbar. You might get 'em in the gut, in which case they'll probably die, but they could concievably still swing a crowbar until you stab 'em a few more times.

Crowbar wins. You can feint a big swing, then huck the thing off your opponent's face, tackle them, and make them stab themselves in the throat with their own knife.

[lapoker17]

great thread

[slavic]

A couple of points.

1) People have a greater fear of a knife than even many deadlier weapons. People have a healthy(or even to a point unhealthy) fear of a knife, and in many cases fear it to the point of being unable to mount a proper attack against it.

2) Knife fighting is very close and personel. A soon as you close the gap with the ranged weapong the fight is over, so if that weapon can't disable you before you reach the opponent it has no chance.

3) I crowbar takes away your opponents best defense versus a blade, his hand.

[Reef]

make it a 36 inch crowbar and you've got yourself a deal

[EliteNinja]

Haven't you guys learned anything from Half-life?
A crowbar can take on anything.
You could even use it to break open boxes revealing healthpacks, ammo and more weapons!

Ok, seriously, I'd totally take the crowbar and it's albeit small length advantage. That hook on the end of the crowbar can take out pretty big chunks of flesh I'd say. And you could use the crowbar to disarm your opponent of the knife by swinging at the knife with the hooked end. As long as you can keep the distance, you will have an advantage with the crowbar. Throw in a few well placed kicks and it'd be all good.

I think it all comes down to skill with the individual weapon, though.

So go with the Gordon Freeman special, the crowbar.

[nicky g]

"For a lot of people, I suspect not having a crowbar might work out better vs. someone w/ the knife. "

Absolutely not. Unarmed against someone with a knife, you are toast.

[nicky g]

"If the crowbar were longer it might be a different story, but my blocking motion with one arm and stepping in to stab with the other can't be stopped. "

Seriously, if you block a crowbar swing with you arm, the pain is going to take away nearly all of the power and accuracy of the thrust, and if you don't get him well, one poorly executed stab attempt is not a fight stopper. People are often stabbed in fights and don't even realise it for minutes; it's extremely dangerous, but it's not particularly painful or instantaneous unless you get them in a vital area - certainly not compared to a shattered arm. Plus there are means and ways to defelect or lessen the impact of the knife attack. If you muck up the stab, which you almost surely will if you try to block the crowbar swing, you are going to be left in agony with a broken arm vs a lightly injured or ininjured guy with a crowbar. I'm not saying that that means it's definitely the crowbar, but "sacrificing" your arm is not the way to do it.

[nicky g]

You might be willing but you won't be able to fight too well once your arm is broken.

[Lazymeatball]

[ QUOTE ]
"For a lot of people, I suspect not having a crowbar might work out better vs. someone w/ the knife. "

Absolutely not. Unarmed against someone with a knife, you are toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his argument holds true for someone who is armed with a caber, those 18 ft wood poles Scotsman like to toss. They would be better off unarmed. How about someone armed with a bowling ball, surely that would only slow them down and make them more prone to attack.

Obviously these are extreme cases, but he is saying that the average man is so unskilled with a crowbar, that the incorrect usuage would make them more prone to counterattacks than those who are unarmed. This is a subjective viewpoint that you could be opposed to, but your blanket statement doesn't negate his point. While I agree that an unarmed man is toast against a knife, being armed improperly with a weapon you are not skillfull with will also make you toast.

[nicky g]

Ok, with the extreme cases yes. But untrained as I am with a crowbar, I would much rather have one than be unarmed against someone with a knife. Almost all self-defence experts will encourage you to use anything that can be improvised into a weapon as an equaliser if you're facing a guy with a knife. Are people seriously saying they wouldn't take the crowbar if the other guy took the knife?

[Edge34]

Hey nicky,

Would I take the crowbar over nothing if the other guy had a knife? Certainly. I'd rather be the guy with the knife myself, but that's me.

Unarmed, am I done against a guy with a knife who presumably isn't trained at all in how to use it properly? Nope. Heck, even against someone with moderate skill, proper training (which I'm fortunate to have a little bit of, and think would be useful for most to have) can allow an unarmed person to deal adequately with the guy with the knife.

Example: Most "street fighters" with knives are going to start off pretty predictably, either with the big-time bullrush to stab you, or they'll swing it around a few times hoping to cut you up a little and get you more worried about bleeding than fighting. Its really funny how little pressure elbows and wrists can take before they break, because if you can sidestep the guy and grab his arm, you can break it pretty easily and either kick the knife away or pick it up and cut the bastard up yourself.

A random side note: If you get in a fight with a guy with a knife, keep your guard up with your palms facing in - you've got a ton of veins on the inside of your arm and you'd hate to get those cut.

-Edge

[Ulysses]

I can imagine a number of people who would swing/lunge w/ the crowbar and get off-balance, leaving themselves completely open and near-defenseless. Some of those people might have a better chance at subduing the attacker using both hands to try and grab his arm or something while avoiding the knife thrust.

Me personally, I would just disarm him w/ a sweet aikido move and then decide whether to bash him w/ the crowbar or stab him.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
Me personally, I would just disarm him w/ a sweet aikido move and then decide whether to bash him w/ the crowbar or stab him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post - its Taekwondo for me, and I'm cutting the fool up every time. Although part of me would like teaching him a lesson with a nice blunt object like that crowbar...

-Edge

[dr. klopek]

crowbar. definitely the crowbar. It's a long, heavy, hooked rod of metal. You can really [censored] some [censored] up with a crowbar, man.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
crowbar. definitely the crowbar. It's a long, heavy, hooked rod of metal. You can really [censored] some [censored] up with a crowbar, man.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. btw, is that you with the light saber?

[nicky g]

You seriously overestimate your abilities against someone with a knife. Try posting this on as serious martial arts forum like martialartsplanet. You will get flamed to kingdom come.

"Its really funny how little pressure elbows and wrists can take before they break, because if you can sidestep the guy and grab his arm, you can break it pretty easily and either kick the knife away or pick it up and cut the bastard up yourself."

Try doing this against someone who is doing everything in their power to resist you. You will get cut to pieces a long time before you can put your magic wristlock of death on. Once you get the lock on, it doesn;t take a lot of pressure to break, no. Getting the lock on against someone going psycho on you with a knife is a bit of a different story.

[nicky g]

"I can imagine a number of people who would swing/lunge w/ the crowbar and get off-balance, leaving themselves completely open and near-defenseless. "

OK I agree, they're still in very big trouble. But if they're completely untrained, there's no way they'll be able to disarm the guy unarmed either. At least with the bar they stand a chance of getting a lucky shot in.

[Lawrence Ng]

How about you lunge at me either weapon, and I twist your arm off your socket while breaking your wrist and elbow?

[Topflight]

12" is very short. Go pick up a ruler and then imagine you are about to fight a guy with a knife.

Give me the knife.

[Edge34]

Hey nicky,

It may not be "easy", but with some good training, you can beat their resistance due to the element of surprise. Most guys who are going to pull a blade on you aren't going to be fighting logically - that's the essence of a street fight. If you can use this against your opponent, you're that much better off. If you can avoid their attack, which will most likely leave them wide open to a quality counterattack, you've got a decent shot.

Training and armed > Training unarmed > No training either way. This is at least IMHO coming from a guy with a 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo with some self-defense training. Basically, what I describe will minimize your chances of getting killed while unarmed. Sure, there's any number of things that could happen whether I'm armed or not, but there's just as good a chance of me missing with the crowbar and the guy stabbing me in one of my vital organs. Basically my point is you're far from dead just because you're unarmed and the guy's got a blade.

I'm working on about 2 hours sleep, so sorry if my post kinda rambles here and there...

-Edge

[nicky g]

Well I still disagree to be honest. Pat O'Malley who is one of the leading Eskrima and blade authorities in the UK, recently wrote that he reckoned his training raised his chances of surviving a knife attack from someone intent on killing him while unarmed from 0% to 2%. He's exaggerating and there are some good systems out there that can raise your chances a lot higher, but I would definitely rank untrained with knife higher than trained without knife for all but the very very best of people with training in knife defence. Part of the problem is that you envisage a single, committed attack which you can dodge and then counterattack; if someone seriously intends to hurt you, they're going to come at you with multiple, very very fast slashing attacks that are very hard to block, as well as stabbing ones.
But anyway, let's hope neither of us are ever in a position where we have to worry about it.

[Lazymeatball]

I say we settle this in a non lethal way. Give Edge34 a weighted paint roller and Nicky G a 4 inch paint brush and send them flying at eachother for 15-30 seconds. See who has the most paint on their opponent with bonus points for location (head, vital organs etc).

[nicky g]

I'm in if we can have it in Atlantic City and someone pays for my flight.

[Edge34]

What kind of odds will you lay me? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

And nicky - you're right. Let's just hope none of us ever really have to worry about how we're going to survive this kind of thing.. (That's the first point of most Martial Arts training even: avoid all the fights you can, and finish those you can't /images/graemlins/cool.gif)

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I say we settle this in a non lethal way. Give Edge34 a weighted paint roller and Nicky G a 4 inch paint brush and send them flying at eachother for 15-30 seconds. See who has the most paint on their opponent with bonus points for location (head, vital organs etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem w/ this contest is that edge's defense plan involves the breaking of wrists/arms/etc. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Lazymeatball]

Right, the scoring wouldn't go by surface area alone, but it would at least give us some indication of who's gonna land blows where, based on speed and skill alone, but not accounting for dehabilitating injuries. In reality they'd look like two sissies in a tickle fight.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
In reality they'd look like two sissies in a tickle fight.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm laying odds that's what it would turn into.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
How about you lunge at me either weapon, and I twist your arm off your socket while breaking your wrist and elbow?

[/ QUOTE ]

That you can move second but land first is a huge assumption, and that's even if you're highly trained.

[ChicagoTroy]

Knife wins, and it's not close. Somebody with a weekend seminar of knife fighting will kill somebody with 10 years' unarmed combat experience.