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the42
11-30-2004, 10:22 AM
Bear or a Lion.
I've had this argument for years and have my reasons why I think a Lion would. What do you think and why?

ChristinaB
11-30-2004, 10:26 AM
In close quarters the lion would have the edge, as he would go for the throat for the kill.

On first approach I give the edge to the bear, with the height advantage and those claws to wound the lion seriously before the lion gets his shot.

The smart aggressive bear will win, the timid bear will lose.

nicky g
11-30-2004, 10:33 AM
The bear. Bears are much bigger. Weight and size is a massive advantage. A whack from a bears paw is going to seriously f up anything that gets near it.

I read somewhere that some bored US troops tried to stage exactly this fight in Baghdad Zoo out of boredom, but that neither animal was up for it, so the question remains unanswered.

OK, who would win the following:

The (unarmed) ultimate martial arts master ever* who had trained for years specifically for this fight
Vs.
Your average tiger.

* (say Bruce Lee at his peak and having trained with Royce Gracie armed with a degree in tigerology)

Obviously the tiger has the weight and strength advantage, but Bruce has trained his tiger take down and guillotine choke to perfection.

jakethebake
11-30-2004, 11:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Bruce has trained his tiger take down and guillotine choke to perfection.

[/ QUOTE ] Yea. Good luck with that. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

the42
11-30-2004, 11:43 AM
The reason I believe the Lion would win is because it is a natural hunter. It would stalk the bear until it found a weakness and then move in. A bear has NO adversaries except man. With the excemption of Salmon it doesn't hunt it feeds. Actually I think it would be much like a poker game. The lion would be "an ging around" until the bear made a mistake and move in. Now if you put a bear and a lion in a small cage i think the bear would win. But if you had an out door area of a square mile or so the lion would find a way. IE Doyle Brunson Lion. Andy Beel bear.

nicky g
11-30-2004, 11:49 AM
"A bear has NO adversaries except man."

There is a reason for that. Indeed, the reason that you never see bears and lions in the same environment is that the bears beat all the lions in fights.

Ray Zee
11-30-2004, 11:50 AM
when i was a little kid they played some of these things that were filmed long before that when legal or no one cared. i watched the lion win easily. probably because lions kill for their food all the time. bears mostly eat plants.
kangaroos beat boxers up with both having gloves on
orangatan beats human easily
rhino kills lion in close quarters

nicky g
11-30-2004, 11:57 AM
Clearly the bear threw the fight.

(Damn).

the42
11-30-2004, 12:03 PM
I'M RIGHT WOOHOO.. all those drunken hours of debate at bars when I was younger. I new I was right. Thanks Ray I'm going out right now to buy SCSFAP.

fsuplayer
11-30-2004, 12:19 PM
Clearly the bear threw the fight.


/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

fsuplayer
11-30-2004, 12:23 PM
why was I not suprised when ray zee not only responded to this thread, but had a kick-ass answer as well.

you are my hero ray, for so many reasons.

Men the Master
11-30-2004, 12:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i watched the lion win easily. probably because lions kill for their food all the time. bears mostly eat plants.

[/ QUOTE ]

One night my friend Bong and I watched a show on the Discovery Channel where they did a computer fight between a tiger and a lion. The lion won easily. The reason they gave was that a lion basically gets more practice in fighting. He travels in a pride and is constantly play fighting with the other lions everyday from chilhood and throughout adulthood. The male lions also fight each other for dominant positions in their pride. They do this constantly.

The tiger, on the other hand, is like the poker player whose religion is "table selection". This player (prefering to play only with live ones) never tries to step up against better opposition and thus fails to learn to play at a higher level. The tiger is basically an ambush artist who preys on weak animals. This is why he can't beat a lion who is a seasoned fighter used to fighting opponents that fight back.

The bear is even worse than a tiger. He only hunts for salmons and eats berries. He stands no chance against the lion.

ThaSaltCracka
11-30-2004, 12:42 PM
if it was a steel cage wrestling match, the bear would win. If it was a street fight to the death, the lion would win. The reasons are fairly obvious.

nicky g
11-30-2004, 12:47 PM
"The bear is even worse than a tiger. He only hunts for salmons and eats berries. He stands no chance against the lion."

Hmmm... I take a martial art and spar a bit. I am pleased to know I would be able to beat a bear in a fight. None of that play dead crap for me from now on.

raisins
11-30-2004, 03:05 PM
These were filmed?! I remember reading in Lame Deer's autobiography about some fights between dogs and bear cubs and a couple of other match ups back in the 20's but the ones you list are way more outrageous.

I know very little about kangaroos but I had heard that their boxing skills were over rated and that they would stop fighting if their opponent landed a blow.

I'm shocked that anyone would be stupid enough to fight an orangutan. In college I took a primate anthropology class and the professor once mentioned that a 60-80 lb primate (perhaps a macque?) was capable of ripping one of our limbs off. Orangutans are second only to chimpanzees in strength and viciousness (gorillas of course are not particularly confrontational).

Once, in a little gypsy circus I saw a "boxing match" between a bear and a human. The bear was muzzled and his claws were covered. It was a rather small bear. The bear stepped forward and swung its right foreleg and while the guy saw it coming and tried to block it, he was knocked of his feet. I guess bear style is particularly strong on the ground as the bear dropped to four feet and went for the mount. Probably looking for his favorite finishing move, disembowel and chew on the still living entrails. The guy panicked and literally crawled out of his pants trying to get away from that bear.

regards,

raisins

Blarg
11-30-2004, 03:22 PM
Some bears are much, much bigger than others(some only weight a few hundred pounts), and some bears ONLY hunt. Like polar bears. I'd give a polar bear the best chance, and believe it would be a good chance. Also, it would seem that whatever animal seizes the initiative or is already hyped up has a huge advantage.

I don't think these comparisons necessarily make all that much sense. That's kind of like saying, who will win in a boxing match, a guy with a fast jab or a guy with a killer right cross? You can have a million fights and still not come up with a definitive answer.

On the man versus tiger thing, there's a story about a guy...Yamaguchi I think his name was, founder of the Goju-Ryu style. Supposedly in the second world war he was thrown in a cage with a lion or tiger, instantly gave a huge kiai shriek that stunned the cat, and came up an punched it right in the head and killed it in one blow. I can believe the cat could have been stunned and startled by the shout, and overall disoriented just by the fact that a man was charging up to him(probably not something he would think of as particularly threatening), and I'm absolutely positive an extremely highly trained karate man could kill a lion or a tiger with one all-or-nothing, your-life-depends-on-it punch to the skull. I also don't think he would have ever had a chance to launch a second punch if he didn't kill or incapacitate the cat instantly -- I don't think there could really be any "fight" to speak of, only a slaughter of any human. That's probably exactly what Yamaguchi thought, and that's why he instantly took the offensive and made shock the focal point of his survival. Karate or no, he had no chance otherwise.

I also believe the story may just have been completely made up. It's from an old, extremely fun book of karate stories and history by Peter Urban, who actually did train with Yamaguchi, as I recall, back in the 40's or 50's. Either way, it makes a great story, and probably illustrated just about the only way a man would have any chance at all.

tolbiny
11-30-2004, 04:13 PM
Hey Ray-
Do you recall what type of bear it was? I would guess a black bear- much easier to come capture and deal with.
I think a Polar bear would be a much different story.
If the lion took down a Grizzly i would be super duper impressed, as opposed to just impressed.

Blarg
11-30-2004, 04:49 PM
That's the way I saw it. Grizzly can take down moose, and it's not hard for them, which are bigger than most animals lions often need a whole pack to take down. And the bigger bears can literally tear open the ribcage of their prey with a single swipe, and are enormous compared to lions. A big bear could probably take quite a few swipes from a lion, especially with their thick coats, but just one solid hit from a big bear could be the end for the lion.

I don't think a standard black bear would be much of a threat, by comparison.

jakethebake
11-30-2004, 04:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I take a martial art..

[/ QUOTE ]Which one, nicky?

ThaSaltCracka
11-30-2004, 05:09 PM
I will bet it was a black bear, and not a grizzly or polar bear. Black bears are pretty much pussies with claws. You make a bunch of noise when you see one and they usually run away.

I would have to think that a grizzly bear or polar bear would beat the [censored] out of a lone lion. The sheer size is a huge advantage, not to mention once that bear stands up on its back legs, that lion is shitting its self. You can take that to the bank.

Ray Zee
11-30-2004, 05:20 PM
i dont know what kind of bear. but guessing this was filmed in europe or afica or someplace like that it would be a brown bear. similar to a grizzly. remember in this stuff we really never know if it was two wild animals or two from a zoo. but back then i think maybe wild.
i also remember the tiger and lion one. lion won almost instantly. lions have big clws like bears but are also made for movement and dexterity.
i always wonder why someone doesnt replay these on cable tv or something. maybe they are lost in archives somewhere.
there were lots of these contests. even on outdoor shows they had dogs fighting black bears. which never beat the dogs as the dogs just keep niping at their butts. it was a big thing then. as well as big tug of wars and fighting on logs in the water. men holding cars and trains with their teeth. hanging over canyons by their teeth from a rope. tight rope walking out in the wind and weather over deep gorges with nothing but death below.
ahh the good ol days.

jakethebake
11-30-2004, 05:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i always wonder why someone doesnt replay these on cable tv or something. maybe they are lost in archives somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ] one word, Ray...PETA.

MarkL444
11-30-2004, 05:41 PM
Its the lion, and i have indisputable evidence (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=240912003)

jakethebake
11-30-2004, 05:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Its the lion, and i have indisputable evidence (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=240912003)

[/ QUOTE ]
Niiiiiiiiice!!!

Men the Master
11-30-2004, 05:43 PM
"The art of fighting without fighting."

ThaSaltCracka
11-30-2004, 06:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Its the lion, and i have indisputable evidence (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=240912003)

[/ QUOTE ]
Hilarious, and I thought it was going to be some sort of ESPN.com animal sporting event.

But lets be honest, that Lion and that Bear are pretty damn tame.

Boris
11-30-2004, 06:20 PM
In real life I've done water snake v. crawdad.

The crawdad wins every time.

ThaSaltCracka
11-30-2004, 06:23 PM
what kind of water snake? Water mocasin?

Leo99
11-30-2004, 07:45 PM
You guys crack me up.

I'm firmly on the lion's side. Lions are way quicker than bears. That bear stands up and lion can jump right over it, land on the bear's back and go for the jugular.

I also think it's total BS that a karate guy can kill a lion/tiger/bear. I do think he could get a punch in with the shriek cause that religous wacko that jumped into the lion's den in the zoo could have gotten close enough to the lion until he slipped and the lion attacked. I've heard of people hitting racoons with baseball bats and the racoon walks away. Unless lions have some sort of thin skull vulnerable to the flying tiger spin kick.

The only way the bear wins is if the lion doesn't attack cause it doesn't feel threatened and because the bear doesn't look like a gazelle.

Boris
11-30-2004, 07:50 PM
A true king lion wouldn't fight the bear. He would have his bitches kill the bear and then he would go eat the very best parts before the other lions are allowed to eat. then he would go back to sleep.

Boris
11-30-2004, 07:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
what kind of water snake?

[/ QUOTE ]

the kind of water snake that swims in water. probably it was a garter snake.

Sundevils21
11-30-2004, 07:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A true king lion wouldn't fight the bear. He would have his bitches kill the bear and then he would go eat the very best parts before the other lions are allowed to eat. then he would go back to sleep.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

ThaSaltCracka
11-30-2004, 07:58 PM
oh, I was going to ask you that next, haha.

My dad actually killed a water mocassin one time, when it fell into his boat in Louisiana.

jakethebake
11-30-2004, 10:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In real life I've done water snake v. crawdad.

The crawdad wins every time.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm calling PETA on you! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

jakethebake
11-30-2004, 10:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
oh, I was going to ask you that next, haha.

My dad actually killed a water mocassin one time, when it fell into his boat in Louisiana.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea. They do that a lot in Texas too. Damn cottonmouths love the trees around water.

Blarg
11-30-2004, 10:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Unless lions have some sort of thin skull vulnerable to the flying tiger spin kick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mas Oyama is an extremely famous karate man who didn't die all that long ago. His books can still be found in stores. He used to fight bulls. He would literally chop their horns off and then kill them with a single punch to the skull. And that's an animal whose whole skull is specifically designed to slam things, unlike a cat's, and is bigger than a lion. This is very well documented. This is the same guy who used to chop empty standing bottles in half with a karate chop without getting cut or having them just bounce off his hand before they broke. That takes a great deal of focused power and speed.

I'm not sure the Yamaguchi story is real or not, but that a man can generate enough power to bust an animal's skull is a definite yes. There are any number of trained martial artists who can break stacks of bricks and boards. A skull is a hard thing, but it is relatively thin by comparison to what men have broken with their hands.

wacki
11-30-2004, 11:01 PM
He killed 47 bulls and split boulders with a karate chop?!?!?!! I don't believe it.... /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

http://www.sporction.com/mas-oyama/kaminote/mas.html

That is unreal.....

Blarg
11-30-2004, 11:28 PM
Not quite boulders, but he encouraged his students to grab sizeable rocks of a variety of shapes from fields to practice breaking so that they would have a great deal of experience in breaking all manner of extremely hard objects -- rocks being much harder and denser than bricks generally are.

He had an extremely aggressive, attacking style. In tournaments held in Japan, it's common, both to gain some distance and as a matter of ceremony, as I understand it, for the two contestants to take a step back when the match begins. He refused that; his students always took a step forward.

Leo99
11-30-2004, 11:28 PM
A dog ran across the street as I was driving last year. I braked and the dog hit my car. It hit my car hard head-first. Dented door, broken mirror. Dog ran off tail awagging. I think he wanted to play some more with me.

Give a lion a little martial arts training and see what happens.

Blarg
11-30-2004, 11:38 PM
Heheh. I'm not sure if that says more for the dog or less for the way they make cars these days. Most cars fail the 5 mph bumper tests. I can feel the metal dent when I lean against many cars, and I'm only 200 pounds of slow moving, non-confrontational butt meat when I lean against something.

Boris
12-01-2004, 04:52 AM
Did it look like this?

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/download/122/cotton%2002cw.jpg

nicky g
12-01-2004, 05:56 AM
"europe or afica or someplace like that"

Priceless! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

nicky g
12-01-2004, 06:01 AM
"The reason they gave was that a lion basically gets more practice in fighting. He travels in a pride and is constantly play fighting with the other lions everyday from chilhood and throughout adulthood. "

By concidence, I watched a documentary on bears last night. They showed grizzly bears constantly playfighting as well as occasionally fighting for real (against predatory males). So if the lion does beat the grizzly, I don;t think that can be why.

poincaraux
12-01-2004, 01:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
"The reason they gave was that a lion basically gets more practice in fighting. He travels in a pride and is constantly play fighting with the other lions everyday from chilhood and throughout adulthood. "

By concidence, I watched a documentary on bears last night. They showed grizzly bears constantly playfighting as well as occasionally fighting for real (against predatory males). So if the lion does beat the grizzly, I don;t think that can be why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the real reason is that the lion chose the knife and the bear got stuck with the crowbar.

nicky g
12-01-2004, 01:14 PM
Haha.

AncientPC
12-01-2004, 02:27 PM
Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Bear

The once and future king
12-01-2004, 04:14 PM
I know for sure that a Bear can beat a horny salmon. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif