Stud H/L hand

[Spidurman]

My main question is - did I misplay the hand. Its a private mixed-game tourney (diff game each night) - both opps are excellent holdem players, but its essentially their first or second time playing stud hi/lo. Just not sure if I made a mistake or if its just old fashioned bad luck.


*********** # 27 **************
PokerStars Game #907584901: Tournament #3118829, 7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit - Level
II (25/50) - 2004/11/29 - 21:22:37 (ET)
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to Bama Gambler [3d]
Dealt to lawfive [7d]
Dealt to Spidurman [3c 4h 2c]
Spidurman: brings-in low 10
Bama Gambler: calls 10
lawfive: calls 10
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to Bama Gambler [3d] [3h]
Dealt to lawfive [7d] [Jc]
Dealt to Spidurman [3c 4h 2c] [5d]
Bama Gambler: checks
lawfive: bets 25
Spidurman: calls 25
Bama Gambler: calls 25
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to Bama Gambler [3d 3h] [Ah]
Dealt to lawfive [7d Jc] [7c]
Dealt to Spidurman [3c 4h 2c 5d] [6h]
lawfive: bets 50
Spidurman: calls 50
Bama Gambler: calls 50
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to Bama Gambler [3d 3h Ah] [Tc]
Dealt to lawfive [7d Jc 7c] [8h]
Dealt to Spidurman [3c 4h 2c 5d 6h] [8s]
lawfive: bets 50
Spidurman: raises 50 to 100
Bama Gambler: calls 100
lawfive: calls 50
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Spidurman [3c 4h 2c 5d 6h 8s] [5h]
lawfive: bets 50
Spidurman: raises 50 to 100
Bama Gambler: raises 50 to 150
lawfive: calls 100
Spidurman: raises 50 to 200
Betting is capped
Bama Gambler: calls 50
lawfive: calls 50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Spidurman: shows [3c 4h 2c 5d 6h 8s 5h] (HI: a straight, Deuce to Six; LO:
6,5,4,3,2)
Bama Gambler: shows [2d 4d 3d 3h Ah Tc 5s] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO:
5,4,3,2,A)
lawfive: shows [Js 9d 7d Jc 7c 8h Th] (HI: a straight, Seven to Jack)
lawfive collected 610 from pot
Bama Gambler collected 610 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***

[eh923]

(Warning - I am not a good Stud/8 player! Bring it on AndyB!)

It seems like a good bit of both. Getting shut out with a 6-high straight is awful. That said, you lost less than you could have (which is probably less than you should have lost).

I'd raise on 4th both representing (and having) a draw with GREAT scoop potential. Also, a free card would be nice if needed on 5th.

I'd raise 5th having hit the draw since (a) the bettor looks like he's going for high and (b) the 3rd opponent looks like he's drawing to a good low.

I'd do the same on 6th (which you did).

The river's trickier since someone might have filled, and one of the guy looked like he might be going for a wheel. that said, I'd probably do the same that you did.

[Klak]

im not a great stud 8 player either but i would have been jamming this pot the whole way and expecting to win both sides. bad beat.

[jon_1van]

The fact that you weren't turbo betting 4th and 5th prevents me from reading the next streets

Sorry you lost - jamming might have gotten rid of the eventual J high straight

[PoorLawyer]

I agree with the last post...you have to raise when you made your hand and probably when you had the strong 4 low. This may have gotten you heads up where you would have at least split the pot.
It really comes down to it being a tough break though, since not raising will tie them on and most of the time your hand will at least split if not scoop

[Hauser_III]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that you weren't turbo betting 4th and 5th prevents me from reading the next streets



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, both 4th and 5th street should have been raised. I think this is one of the rare instances, however, where the raises, even though correct, would not have driven out either of the other two players. If I'm the other low, there's no way a raise would get me out of that hand on fourth, and certainly not on fifth; he's got great scoop potential, and a strong draw at what could be the best low. So, he's not going anywhere. The high should drop on fourth to a raise, because he's looking at two boards with scoop potential. But, he's a hold em player, without much stud/8 experience, so my bet is that he'd stay, even with just the pair of j's; the hold em players I've run across that stray into the stud/8 games tend to be very aggressive with pairs for high, especially when looking at two hands that look (to a hold em player) to be weak for high. And on fifth street, when he has two pair and a gutshot straight? Again, I don't think he's going anywhere. With the hero's hand, I would have raised, I think the raises would have been correct, and I think I would have lost because I think both opponents would have stayed in.

[Spidurman]

Thanks guys - and yes 4th/5th street were my concerns about a misplay.

*Lesson learned..my wallet hopes*

[Andy B]

Hand histories are hard to read. I got a better handle on the action from reading the replies than I did from your post. Convert hand histories to a narrative. The converter is OK, but I think it's even better if you type it out yourself, including the stuff that's important and omitting stuff that isn't.

Either calling or raising on fourth is fine. Your hand is very strong, and you don't mind keeping people in. That said, players will call two bets with hands they shouldn't, and you might want to give them that chance.

There is no reason not to raise fifth. Your edge is large, and you should exploit it. If 33A has a big low draw, you should charge him the maximum. If he goes out, your scoop chances go up. If he will draw to a Seven when you raise, and many players will, that's great. Since 33AT called a cap on sixth, he probably would have called a cap on fifth as well. You should have given him the opportunity.

On the river, I think you still have to cap. It isn't that often that you're going to get shut out with a Six-high straight. Tough break. At the risk of sounding results-oriented, you slow-played yourself into oblivion on this hand.

If it's any consolation, lawfive had no business being in that pot.

[BamaGambler]

Any comments on the way Bama Gambler played the hand?

[eh923]

(Warning #2 - not a good Stud/8 Player...just trying to see if my thought processes are even close)

Raise 3rd. Unless the guy with the bring-in has an A in the hole, you're a favorite for low. Also, your hand has scooping possibilities. If they drop out, that's fine. If they want to call with bad hands, let them!

I'd consider bailing on 4th since the pot is still small and you could be chasing on BOTH sides. lawfive betting means that you're probably trailing on the high side. Notice that two diamonds are dead as is at least one of the primary cards you'd need for a straight. On the low, Spidurman might have 4 to a 5 or 6.

I'd also think about bailing on 6th. Going for low, unless Spidurman is a complete dumbass, he has AT LEAST a made 8. Two 7's, a 5, and a 6 are all dead, so you have little outs to beat an 8 (and even less for beating a 6). Going for high, it looks like you need a 5 to win that side. lawfive PROBABLY has two pair or trips and is drawing to fill up. Spidurman could have a 6-high straight. Since your flush is gone, either of these would shut you out. And if you don't make a straight, you're in even more trouble on the high side.

In the heat of the battle, I'm sure I'd do the same as you...but given time to reflect, I don't think I'd see the river. Until I hear some other reasoning, I don't think I'd see 5th street either.

[Hauser_III]

I think if spider had raised on fifth street, then you should have dumped, since he's got a strong board for a wheel, and you're almost certainly chasing a strong made low at that point. Since he didn't raise, however, I think it's reasonable to assume that he's got just four to a low at that point, and you also have four to an excellent low, with scoop potential, so i think your call on fifth street is correct. On sixth, he looks like he's betting a made 8-low, you've got a draw to a better low (which still has scoop potential, if you hit the wheel, and also could take high, if you miss the wheel but hit A's up), so I agree with calling the raise. You gambled with good odds and good draws, and i think it would have been correct even if seventh street hadn't hit you at all and you had been forced to fold.

[eh923]

I don't agree with your take on 6th.

The only hand with scoop potential is a wheel. His wheel draw is definitely good for low (ignoring the small chance of a split), and it's pretty strong for high. But it's only a 3-outer.

If he makes an 8 or better, he's probably good...although his opponent probably has a made hand and a redraw to a better made hand. But if he makes something for high, he'll definitely miss low, and will still probably be shut out by Jacks up or trip 7's.

He's facing a raise, and a potential re-raise, which increases the chance that some of the cards he needs are in the other players hole cards. I'd muck 6th (assuming I was still in the hand!).

Where's Ray Zee when you need him? ;-)

[Hauser_III]

I agree that his likelihood, on sixth, of ending up with the best high (absent hitting the wheel for a scoop) is low. But either A's up or trip 3's could be good for high. They're certainly not full outs, but they at least need to be given credit for partial outs, and that factors into my analysis as to whether it's correct to continue on sixth. Given his apparent outs for highs and lows, and the odds he's getting from the pot (both actual and implied), I call on sixth.

I agree, where is Ray Zee for this question? My read of his book is that he'd say it's correct to make the calls on sixth, but maybe I'm misunderstanding his hi-lo book. After all, there are some statements in different sections of his book that seem like contradictions to me.

[eh923]

My comments are based purely on reading stuff on this forum, and the (somewhat outdated) Hi/Low section of S/S. Maybe it's time to check out Zee's book!

[dogsballs]

Spidurman, you shoulda put in every single bet you could the entire way to the river. Jam it all the way, then play the river.

BG should also have jammed 3rd. As it was, on 4th I'da bet his 234/3 (3 suited), even tho it's paired. You're short-handed and can never be anywhere far behind...if he is. Then he's locked in to the end once he catches the A, so long as serious jamming doesn't happen.