Playing Kxs in Wild Game [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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yellowjack

11-30-2004, 05:59 AM

Note: UTG and UTG+1 are frequent bluffers and also noted to raise preflop with any ace.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (16 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (24 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 26 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Ac 9d (straight, queen high).
UTG+1 has Jd Qd (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: SB wins 26 BB. 

On the flop, is my reraising a correct play because of the # of people that have already called? I didn't take Ac xc into account because the players raising could have so many other combinations of cards that they would do this with.

umdpoker

11-30-2004, 06:56 AM

ummm.... yeah cap the flop. no brainer. you have an oesd + 2nd nut flush draw. that equals an assload of outs. the oesd outs are probably to a split, but even after discounting them and the flush draw, i would still rather have this than just a nut flush draw.

Ajax410

11-30-2004, 06:56 AM

Easy PF fold - if he is raising with any ace, you're still behind - and he's likely to narrow the field behind you, making your HIGHLY speculative hand less valuable.

Good flop aggression.

Alex

Vaftrudner

11-30-2004, 06:58 AM

I think you should fold this preflop, wait for better hands to call 2 cold with. On the flop you have a very strong draw so sure (though it's a big difference with a K high flush draw compared to an A high, but it's still very good and you also have the straight draw as well, so bloat it). /v

Ajax410

11-30-2004, 07:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
though it's a big difference with a K high flush draw compared to an A high

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually completely wrong.

Alex

Vaftrudner

11-30-2004, 07:12 AM

What is wrong?

Ajax410

11-30-2004, 07:13 AM

The difference between a king high flush versus an ace high flush is negligable.

Alex

Vaftrudner

11-30-2004, 07:14 AM

no it's not.

Ajax410

11-30-2004, 07:17 AM

This thread can debase into your trying to defend your point, but trust me, the reason that Axs is more valuable than Kxs (this is taken directly from SSH, which I'm currently lending to a friend so I can't give you a page #) is because of the Ace's high card value, not it's nut-flush capability.

If he played his King-high flush draw the same way he played an Ace-high flush draw (assuming he plays the A-high correctly), every move he makes will be +EV.

Alex

Vaftrudner

11-30-2004, 07:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the reason that Axs is more valuable than Kxs <snip> is because of the Ace's high card value, not it's nut-flush capability.

[/ QUOTE ]
eh, did I say anything else?

[ QUOTE ]

If he played his King-high flush draw the same way he played an Ace-high flush draw (assuming he plays the A-high correctly), every move he makes will be +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed (in this case) but there is still a big difference. /v

Ajax410

11-30-2004, 07:32 AM

There really isn't a big difference. I mean, obviously, the Ace's top pair can't be refuted - but I playing the K-high flush draw aggressively, which he opts to do, is clearly the most +EV move.

As I said in an earlier post, he makes a very marginal pre-flop call, but it would still have been marginal with Axs.

Alex

crockett

11-30-2004, 09:05 AM

I want to add a few things.

Change your thoughts on a "very marginal pre-flop" call to HORRIBLE pre-flop call. Hero said himself "raising with any A". I think many people make the mistake of lowering their standards just because an opponent is LAGGing it up pre-flop. If you absolutely must play this hand then you should 3-bet in attempts to push out everyone else and out play him on the flop, but I think this is just as foolish as cold calling 2 with K7s but a hair smarter.

Finally, I agree with your "flush thoughts" their is not a BIG difference between A7s or K7s in flush value. Very close. A7s begins to widen the gap because of the greater high card value of the A over the K.

fflyer

11-30-2004, 09:31 AM

K7s is hardly worth limping with unless there are a few people already in the pot, so calling a raise with it is a definite no-no however LAGgish your opponent might be.

Emmitt2222

11-30-2004, 09:48 AM

After seeing Illunious' post with his 150billion hands and that large 4+BB/100 winrate I am now starting to tighten up a little bit more, not a lot but a little. I think because I am relatively new having only been playing 3 months and I am just starting to multitable I too choose to pass up on very small +EV chances. Therefore I am actually not playing any Kxs if it is below K9s unless I am in late position and there are at least 5 callers in front. I am thinking about folding A10o and KJo from early position as whereas before I almost always played them. Even without a raise, in SSHE it is only recommended that Kxs is played from CO or Button in a loose game so this is a call you really want to avoid in the future. I think thats all right...but like I said I'm new