$30-60 Hand #2 - KTs

[MarkD]

When I played this hand the concept that was in my mind was, "Check with outs, bet without." I must admit, I don't feel comfortable with my turn + river play in combination.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 3.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 3.25 BB, between Hero and BB.</font>

[nummerfire]

I would valuebet the river. He would most likely have bet a J or Q on the river after your turn check and he can have a smaller pair, that will call.

Kim

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
When I played this hand the concept that was in my mind was, "Check with outs, bet without." I must admit, I don't feel comfortable with my turn + river play in combination.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that the villian has given no indication that you are even behind in this hand really just means you missed a value bet on the turn as opposed to the checking with outs plan.

If you really feel uncomforatable about your hand you check behind on the river.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the villian has given no indication that you are even behind in this hand really just means you missed a value bet on the turn as opposed to the checking with outs plan.

If you really feel uncomforatable about your hand you check behind on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I have been playing these hands in the past.

[MarkD]

My opponent showed A5o and my hand is good.

The reasons I checked behind on the turn is:
- I would not like getting check raised on this board. I have a good draw and will have to continue if I'm check raised but my hand is currently very weak.
- There are few cards that can hurt me if I am ahead.
- He was slightly agressive and I thought there was a chance he could bet a worse hand than mine on the river.

I feel as if I should have bet the turn in this hand which leads me to the conclusion I don't fully understand checking behind on the turn with outs. I thought my above logic was sound when I was playing the hand, but maybe I was just scared. I'm able to admit that possibility exists.

[vector2]

Checking behind on the turn isn't a terrible mistake as long as you value bet the river. Betting the turn isn't terrible as long as you check behind on the river unimproved. One way or another, a bet should've gone in on one of the later streets.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking behind on the turn isn't a terrible mistake as long as you value bet the river. Betting the turn isn't terrible as long as you check behind on the river unimproved. One way or another, a bet should've gone in on one of the later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I have a value bet on the river in this hand at all. I agree that I want at least one big bet to go into the pot on either the turn or the river, but after I check the turn I don't like betting the river. I don't think I am going to get called by a worse hand often enough to make betting correct.

[mmcd]

In principle, I don't mind playing these hands like this, but the particular board texture on this hand tends to point towards betting the turn here. Part of the reason that this line is good generally is that usually the blind will come out firing on the river and you'll pick off a lot of bluffs. With QJT8 on the board however, he'll be less likely to come out bluffing on the river because the board almost certainly hit the PFR in some way and he'd expect to get a call. If there were no diamond draw present here, I might very well take your line because there would be absolutely nothing that he could call a turn bet with that I could beat, BUT there would still be a small chance he'd come out firing on the river because of the weakness I showed.

Once you check the turn on this board though, you certainly don't have a value bet on a blank river with 3rd pair. He might bet out a worse hand, but I doubt he'd call with one given the 3 broadway cards and the 4-liner on the board. Change the board to JT872 and I think you'd have a clear value bet because you could potentially get looked up by a lot of weaker hands.

[TStoneMBD]

i agree with valuebetting the river. i dont think its close at all. i can understand checking the turn, but in general i dont like this play. youre going to be ahead on the turn far more often than not, and if youre behind then you have as many as 13 outs.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with valuebetting the river. i dont think its close at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, you think this is a value bet on the river? I have 3rd pair on a highly co-ordinated board and you think I am going to be called by a worse hand over 50% of the time that I bet? Explain this to me because I think this is completely wrong.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
In principle, I don't mind playing these hands like this, but the particular board texture on this hand tends to point towards betting the turn here. Part of the reason that this line is good generally is that usually the blind will come out firing on the river and you'll pick off a lot of bluffs. With QJT8 on the board however, he'll be less likely to come out bluffing on the river because the board almost certainly hit the PFR in some way and he'd expect to get a call. If there were no diamond draw present here, I might very well take your line because there would be absolutely nothing that he could call a turn bet with that I could beat, BUT there would still be a small chance he'd come out firing on the river because of the weakness I showed.


[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this and I think the salient point is the presense of the two diamonds. This sways it over to a clear bet, whereas in a lot of cases I think this would be a good turn check.

[ QUOTE ]
Once you check the turn on this board though, you certainly don't have a value bet on a blank river with 3rd pair. He might bet out a worse hand, but I doubt he'd call with one given the 3 broadway cards and the 4-liner on the board. Change the board to JT872 and I think you'd have a clear value bet because you could potentially get looked up by a lot of weaker hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this too and if the board was JT872 I would have bet the river for sure as now there are a lot of weaker hands that may call my bet on the river.

[jayheaps]

i would have bet the turn and probably checked the river. i would have put the BB on a 9, maybe with a pair 2. if that was the case you let him draw for free.

[MarkD]

I think a 9 would typically bet into me on this flop - or possibly check raise me. I didn't put him on a 9 and definitely didn't put him on a pair + a 9 as I would most certainly expect some flop agression in that case.

[mmcd]

would have bet the turn and probably checked the river. i would have put the BB on a 9, maybe with a pair 2.

9 makes a straight on the turn. If there wasn't 2 diamonds on the flop, there is no worse hand with which bb could call a turn bet.

[DcifrThs]

kind of interesting hand markd...

glad i opened this thread (your name had something to do with it)

shorthanded 30-60 against NO agression with a fairly marginal hand on the turn after being checked to...

if you bet and are raised you basically have to call and still dont necessarily know where you are at in terms of how you need to improve (a T could win it at times, so could a K...i.e. raised by 2pair, although unlikely given the board). if you check, you should be prepared to bet the river for value against a blank (against a small/medium pair under t's and obviously not 9's) and bet and fold to a c-r (unless what enon tells me is true and that at the party 30 game there is a bit more c-r bluffing on the river in these situations)...

i think you are correct that in combination your river/turn play do not match...betting the turn DOES however prevent a spade draw getting a free card BUT, no overcards but the a can come to hurt you, and that card gives you the nut straight. so you are beat now, or you are preventing giving a freebe to a spade draw or are behind now and are drawing.

its HARD to put a shorthanded opponent at this time on a straight since all he did was call and call...he MAY be slowplying a big pair or now be scared w/his set, but enon also tells me this game plays aggressive...so i think he's got a small/mid pair, AT, a weak suited jack or an Ax spade draw that might have been tryingt o keep you honest w/ high card...

personally, i think checking the turn is really player dependent...if he's unlikely to raise, You really should bet...if he's at all tricky or likely to raise, then checking in this small pot is good...but after he checks on the river, there is just enough value i think to bet...

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I played this hand the concept that was in my mind was, "Check with outs, bet without." I must admit, I don't feel comfortable with my turn + river play in combination.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that the villian has given no indication that you are even behind in this hand really just means you missed a value bet on the turn as opposed to the checking with outs plan.

If you really feel uncomforatable about your hand you check behind on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally, i like checking behind on this turn against an aggressive/tricky opponent and betting against an opponent that is more likely weak/scared/unlikely to c-r IN THIS SMALL POT...however, as the pot size grows, my betting frequency increases proportionally, maybe even disproportionately (more) with respect to that increase.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i agree with valuebetting the river. i dont think its close at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, you think this is a value bet on the river? I have 3rd pair on a highly co-ordinated board and you think I am going to be called by a worse hand over 50% of the time that I bet? Explain this to me because I think this is completely wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're check on the turn signals weakness...small pairs, ace high can call since a total blank hit on the river...depends on player/image but as i said in my post..i think there's just enough value to bet the river...but im willing to say its hard to get that value in such a small pot

-Barron

[William Jockusch]

I think you should bet the turn. I have to admit I never much liked the concept "check with outs, bet without." Here your bet could result in all sorts of good things, such as being check raise semibluffed by a flush draw. Also your opponent could have a hand like a weaker king -- and you definitely want to force him to call or fold. Also, if you are called, the check behind on the river becomes easy.

If you are check raised it is not so bad. You probably have at least 8 outs to win, and your opponent may be semibluffing. You will call the hand down no matter what.

[DeezNutz3]

[ QUOTE ]
kind of interesting hand markd...

glad i opened this thread (your name had something to do with it)

shorthanded 30-60 against NO agression with a fairly marginal hand on the turn after being checked to...

9 handed not shorthanded

if you bet and are raised you basically have to call and still dont necessarily know where you are at in terms of how you need to improve (a T could win it at times, so could a K...i.e. raised by 2pair, although unlikely given the board). if you check, you should be prepared to bet the river for value against a blank (against a small/medium pair under t's and obviously not 9's) and bet and fold to a c-r (unless what enon tells me is true and that at the party 30 game there is a bit more c-r bluffing on the river in these situations)...

i think you are correct that in combination your river/turn play do not match...betting the turn DOES however prevent a spade draw getting a free card BUT, no overcards but the a can come to hurt you, and that card gives you the nut straight. so you are beat now, or you are preventing giving a freebe to a spade draw or are behind now and are drawing.

its HARD to put a shorthanded opponent at this time on a straight since all he did was call and call...he MAY be slowplying a big pair or now be scared w/his set, but enon also tells me this game plays aggressive...so i think he's got a small/mid pair, AT, a weak suited jack or an Ax spade draw that might have been tryingt o keep you honest w/ high card...

so 2/4 he can't beat and the other two probabley don't call, i don't see the value in this

personally, i think checking the turn is really player dependent...if he's unlikely to raise, You really should bet...if he's at all tricky or likely to raise, then checking in this small pot is good...but after he checks on the river, there is just enough value i think to bet...

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to bet the turn...I think that's fine but I check behind on the river as I do not see a hand I beat calling. But I especially think your check check is fine and in the party 30/60 game.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking behind on the turn isn't a terrible mistake as long as you value bet the river. Betting the turn isn't terrible as long as you check behind on the river unimproved. One way or another, a bet should've gone in on one of the later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with this approach in general, but in hero's situation, i'd say he played just fine. very fine, indeed.

the river check is good because there isn't much of a hand out there that hero beats and will call.

[MarkD]

Hello Dcifrthis,

I haven't seen you on the boards much lately. Thanks for the kind words.

I like your approach to this hand and especially like your response to CDC about an increasing desire to bet the turn as the size of the pot increases. I agree with that completely. Checking the turn is definitely player dependent and against a tricky opponenent I do think checking behind is the better play. In this specific hand I don't think I should have checked because of the flush draw on board. If it's rainbow I think this is a clear check, but the presense of the flush draw means that there are a lot of hands that are going to call my bet on the turn. I will get a lot of money from those hands when I am ahead and if I am behind on the turn my bet costs me very little due to the number of outs that I have.

The reason I checked was that other than the flush draw there are almost NO cards in the deck that hurt me if I'm currently ahead, and if I'm behind I have lots of outs. I am going to call a bet on the river most of the time here (player dependent).

I don't feel horrible about my turn check in this hand but I do think it was a mistake and that I should have bet.

About the river. I looked for a value bet during the hand. I am looking for a value bet now. I just don't see it. If the board texture was slightly different (as noted previously in this thread by mmcd) then I would be value betting for sure for exactly the reasons you state. The specific board texture in this hand really tells me that I can't bet the river here.

[MarkD]

Not that the results matter much in this hand but my opponent had A5o and MHIG.

[TwoNiner]

Definite river value bet in my opinion. Your on a steal. Him check calling the flop reaaly drops the possibility of a J way down. Then it goes... Turn check, check with the turn making board double suited. This guy can have no confidence that you would bet the river if he has a Q or a 9, and if he saw you bet with this action he would need to call with small pairs or an 8. He could even call down with an ace after this action since you checked a draw heavy turn then sprang to life on the river.

[mmcd]

and if he saw you bet with this action he would need to call with small pairs or an 8. He could even call down with an ace

This is very wrong. By and large the players in this game aren't clowns. They can be sloppy and overaggro, but they are capable of saving bets. Sure, he can bet here and will probably take the pot somewhere north of 80% of the time, but those times he is called, HE WILL LOSE THE HAND.


Interestingly enough though, had hero bet the turn and gotten called, he would have had a value bet on the river for the very reason you cite.

It's the fact that he checked behind on the turn that makes the river a clear check.