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jon_1van

11-30-2004, 02:17 AM

Hand 1 ::

Party Poker 5/10 (0.5 ante) Seven Card Stud High (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

3rd Street: (0.70 SB) Hero is Seat 4 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif(7 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/club.gif
Seat 2: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 3: xx xx T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 6: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Seat 7: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Action: Seat 6 brings it in for $2, Seat 7 calls, Seat 1 calls, Seat 2 calls, Seat 3 folds, Hero completes, Seat 5 raises, Seat 6 folds, Seat 7 calls, Seat 1 folds, Seat 2 folds, Hero calls.

Hand 2 ::

Party Poker 5/10 (0.5 ante) Seven Card Stud High (6 handed)

3rd Street: (0.60 SB) Hero is Seat 5 with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif(6 players)

Seat 1: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 2: xx xx K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 3: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 4: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 6: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/club.gif

Action: Seat 4 brings it in for $2, Hero completes, Seat 6 calls, Seat 1 raises, Seat 2 folds, Seat 3 folds, Seat 4 folds, Hero calls, Seat 6 calls.

So on both of these hands I bet and get raised by a player that I can assume has the pair they are represnting...and I call. What is everyones take on that??

jon_1van

11-30-2004, 02:21 AM

Here is the complete History of each hand feel free to comment

Hand 1 ::

Party Poker 5/10 (0.5 ante) Seven Card Stud High (7 handed)

3rd Street: (0.70 SB) Hero is Seat 4 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif(7 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/club.gif
Seat 2: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 3: xx xx T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 6: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Seat 7: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Action: Seat 6 brings it in for $2, Seat 7 calls, Seat 1 calls, Seat 2 calls, Seat 3 folds, Hero completes, Seat 5 raises, Seat 6 folds, Seat 7 calls, Seat 1 folds, Seat 2 folds, Hero calls.

4th Street: (7.90 SB) Hero catches T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 7: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Action: Seat 5 bets, Seat 7 calls, Hero calls.

5th Street: (5.45 BB) Hero catches J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 7: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif

Action: Seat 7 checks, Hero checks, Seat 5 checks.

6th Street: (5.45 BB) Hero catches 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 7: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Action: Seat 7 bets, Hero folds, Seat 5 calls.

7th Street: (7.45 BB) (2 players)
Seat 7 bets, Seat 5 calls.

Final Pot: 9.45 BB
Main Pot: 9.45 BB, between Seat 5 and Seat 7.

Hand 2 ::

Party Poker 5/10 (0.5 ante) Seven Card Stud High (6 handed)

3rd Street: (0.60 SB) Hero is Seat 5 with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif(6 players)

Seat 1: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 2: xx xx K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 3: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 4: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 6: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/club.gif

Action: Seat 4 brings it in for $2, Hero completes, Seat 6 calls, Seat 1 raises, Seat 2 folds, Seat 3 folds, Seat 4 folds, Hero calls, Seat 6 calls.

4th Street: (7 SB) Hero catches 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Seat 6: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Action: Seat 1 bets, Hero raises, Seat 6 folds, Seat 1 3-bets, Hero caps, Seat 1 calls.

5th Street: (7.50 BB) Hero catches 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Action: Seat 1 bets, Hero calls.

6th Street: (9.50 BB) Hero catches A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Action: Seat 1 bets, Hero calls.

7th Street: (11.50 BB) Hero catches (2 players)
Seat 1 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB
Main Pot: 11.50 BB, won by Seat 1.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Seat 1.

eh923

11-30-2004, 12:03 PM

Hand 1
You played this fine. Your complete was correct. The fact that Seat 7 called $10 cold meant that he was staying, so there was no need to re-raise. Also, if he has Q's, he'll need to get at least 3 of a kind to pass you (since you'll need at least Kings up to pass Aces). I don't think being 3-handed at this point is a big deal since Seat 7 is subsidizing both of you.

Hand 2:
I'd re-raise here to try to get Seat 6 out of there (if you're POSITIVE he won't fold, then calling is okay). There's dead money in the pot already, and you could even be ahead of a medium pair with a live A...so this is definitely playable.

lstream

11-30-2004, 12:18 PM

Jon,

I hope you don't mind the slight hi-jack here. How does the 5/10 game compare to the 3/6 game? Are you still winning? I recall from last week that you were considering moving up to 5/10, and it looks like you have made the leap.

jon_1van

11-30-2004, 01:01 PM

Well,
This was my first trip to 5-10. It is noticable tighter. But I think Party Poker has better players on Monday. Anyway it is too soon to tell. I think I'll be competitive at this level.

This will be the first time that I'll have to start thinking in more detail about my hands. So there will be less of "just play good cards against bad cards" from here on out. And I'm looking forward to improving my game

Andy B

11-30-2004, 11:10 PM

Hand 1, you were correct to complete, of course. When it's raised and called back to you, you have a call, as you're getting something like 6:1 and your call completes the action. Having the suited kicker is kinda nice. You would be better off without the third player in there most of the time, but he may be hard to shake. $5/10 players are a tenacious bunch.

Hand 2, geez, I don't know. I mean, what I do is complete and then call the raise, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. With two over-cards behind you, a reasonable case can be made for calling and seeing what they do. Without the caller between you and the Ace, you'd have to seriously consider folding to his raise, but with that extra money in there, you should probably continue. If by three-betting, you can get him out, well, then you've made the pot too big to fold, haven't you. The other guy probably has Aces, and your kicker sucks. So yeah, I'd just call and hope I get hit hard on fourth and/or fifth.

SA125

12-01-2004, 03:13 AM

My take is you're asking why when you completed twice in front of an A, got clipped both times and ....what exactly is your question? Is this what it's like at 5/10?

I have no doubt you're a winning player at 3/6, but the truth is being a winner online at Party's LL's, whether it's stud or holdem, isn't as much about being a real good poker player as it is about being a decent one who can handle the wide swings. The fact that you're wondering what happened in these hands shows that you fully expect to raise in front of higher cards with impunity.

Anyone who has played on Party for any amount of time knows two things. The first is that when you're running good, you're hands hold up and your draws hit. You can do no wrong. And vice versa. No matter how good you are, when you're running bad, you're road kill. The second is that skill does come into play and, when raising QQ with an A or K behind you, don't be surprised when the enemy shoots back and you're running for cover.

jon_1van

12-01-2004, 10:54 AM

What advice are you giving?

SA125

12-01-2004, 01:02 PM

My advice is to not be so surprised when you complete with big pairs and get raised and beat by higher ones or drawn out on by other ones.

I apologize for the tone of my initial reply. It was obnoxious and arrogant and uncalled for. But you seem genuinely surprised that they played back at you in those hands. I don't see why. I can't believe that in all the hands you played at 3-6 you didn't come across action like that.

grb137

12-01-2004, 02:20 PM

Regarding hand 1 - consideration of your opponents skill level and playing style is crucial here. I'm sure you considered it and just didnt mention it in your post, but its important for the discussion. Is seat 5 the kinda guy that will raise with a 3 flush or 3 str8? Is seat 7 soo loose that he'd call with a pair of Qs against represented Ks and As?

Regarding 3rd street, I would play it same as you - raise, and call.

Assuming 5 & 7 are decent players, I'm outta there on 4th. I'd definately call seat 5 in a heads-up situation
since I've now got a flush draw working for me, but seat 7's participation makes this a non-playable hand for me. With seat 7 calling double bet on 3rd and again calling on 4th, I'd be thinking that my cowboys are up against possible Aces and a likely 4-flush. Not worth chasing in my opinion.

Who ended up winning at what did they end up having?

grb137

12-01-2004, 02:44 PM

Regarding hand 2 -
On 3rd, I don't like your raise here 3rd because:
1) you've got an A and K behind you to act and more importantly
2) your kicker sucks ass

And let me give you some tough love - your fold on the river was AWEFUL.
1) You caught an Ace, which makes it that much more unlikely that he had aces to begin. He could have very well had a medium pocket pair or a flush draw when he raised on 3rd. The fact that you called the big bets on 5th and 6th tells me that you doubted his having aces in the first place
2) But more importantly - POT ODDS! With all that money in there, it was criminal for you to not call a measly $10 with your Hoes' up. I've won so much money with busted hands that incidentally had like 8s up or a pair of Js in them.

Again, your observations of your opponent would have been helpful.

jon_1van

12-01-2004, 06:09 PM

Actually in 3/6, if I got raised by a higher card after completing with something like a Q there was a very very very good chance I was up against a higher pair (or perhaps a good flush draw).

But when moving up to 5-10 I saw alot more reraising with and without the goods.

And honestly, I adjusted poorly. I lost a significant fraction of my limited bankroll and now I have to move down and rebuild. But hey, live and learn.

Thanks for the apology, but you were right. I need to be less surprised when I complete and then get raised.

jon_1van

12-01-2004, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that you called the big bets on 5th and 6th tells me that you doubted his having aces in the first place

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I was pretty sure he had Aces. But my made 2 pair is ahead of this hand a little. Once he caught the pair of Ts I knew I was losing but called to see a river. My river was a dud his was another T giving him AATTT. In general I think you are correct that this was a bad fold, but against this particular player he probably had it (he was also playing like 3-5 tables so I didn't think he was screwing around...and his play on my table backed this up)

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding hand 2 -
On 3rd, I don't like your raise here 3rd because:
1) you've got an A and K behind you to act and more importantly
2) your kicker sucks ass

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you here. Completing here when your opponent might raise and create a big pot where you have no clue where you are is a bad idea. In 3/6 I only got that raise when I was actually behind and I could plan accordingly. At the 5-10 tables (with only 2 days experence here) the opponents raise was quite confusing because it could mean anything.

jon_1van

12-01-2004, 06:42 PM

I called 4th street on this hand because I closed the action. If I didn't close it I would have folded...still don't like it???

I'll dig through my histories to see what the results were I don't remember right now

lstream

12-01-2004, 06:56 PM

I feel for you, since this is the type of action that I have trouble with too. The only way I have found to deal with it so far, is to be really tight when I first get to a table. The exception is if I have encountered the person before and have good notes on what they like to do. I then try to understand the opposition to see how they operate. The trouble with this is that I seem to start most sessions by losing money - mainly through antes and bring-ins. Meanwhile the guys who are pushing their weight around like this win a lot of pots unopposed. I have a feeling that I am letting them get away with murder, because I really pick my spots to go after them. If I pick them right, then I can settle them down, at least when I am part of the betting. If I don't, then I seem to end up in a rapid downhill slide. I'm not claiming my approach is correct, but so far that is what I am doing. When things work out well, and I get a good sense of the other players, then I end up being the bully. This does not happen very often, but when it does, it ends up being very profitable. I have a lot to learn in dealing with this type of situation.

SA125

12-01-2004, 07:00 PM

"But when moving up to 5-10 I saw alot more reraising with and without the goods"

That's what they mean by a tough game or tough player. It's right out of SCSFAP. If there's some money in the pot, getting it h/u by re-raising with overcards gives you a better chance to win even when you're slightly behind.

You're a good player. 3-6 and 5-10 are basically the same cast of characters except, like you said, the losses hurt much more.

MRBAA

12-01-2004, 07:03 PM

I think it's generally correct to call a raise on 3rd and a bet on 4th unless it's head up and you're very sure your opponent has the high pair. On fifth, if I don't improve and he's still betting (especially into multiple opponents) I probably give up. However when I make a second pair on fourth as you did in hand two, I'm going to the river unless I'm beat in sight or there's action between two opponents that tells me I'm beat. I would not have capped fourth here, but I sure as heck would have called the river.

AdamK

12-01-2004, 07:35 PM

Here's my take before i read the other comments...

Hand1:
Nothing much wrong here.
Certainly think about raising 4th, but with the suited T i guess youre not gonna get it heads up. wp

Hand2:
I wouldn't raise on 3rd with 2 overcards behind me ( esp with your kicker). If you can fold to a reraise, then ok, but in this case you're calling without knowing where you are.
I think you obviously put some time, effort & thought into your game, so...
how do you fold this hand on the river for 1 bet?
This looks like a sin to me.
If you can fold Qs up on 7th, why are you calling on 5th & 6th?

jon_1van

12-01-2004, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If there's some money in the pot, getting it h/u by re-raising with overcards gives you a better chance to win even when you're slightly behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

SCSFAP is genearlly for bigger ante games no? I think the 5-10 PP game should just be played very tightly. There isn't enough money to steal alot. But until I actually make this work it's just conjecture.

jon_1van

12-01-2004, 08:26 PM

What do you think he's 3 betting on 4th ???

AA with 2 duds?
Aces up?
Trip Tens?

4 large diamonds?
A small pair with AT kickers?

I think that his 3rd and 4th street play indicates the top 3 much stronger than the bottom 2.

patrick dicaprio

12-01-2004, 10:31 PM

on hand one once it gets heads up i wouldnt fold as you have a profitable call everytime. this is especially true if your opponent will not bet every street when he is first to act. with the third player in it is even better since you make more money when he is in as opposed to when he is out since when you improve you make more money.

on hand two i would tend to raise again to try to get it heads up unless i knew for sure he had a pair of aces in which case i would call. i wouldnt ever be "sure " that he had aces so i guess i would never fold here. thedifefrence between the two is that a pair of K's is stronger than a pair of Q's especially if the third player has a hand like 8K8, whereas in the first hand the only hand that might worry you with teh Q's is QAQ and that is good for you since it makes it harder for both opponents to improve plus in the first hand you cant get it heads up by raising since there was a caller in between.

Pat

Andy B

12-02-2004, 01:44 AM

I think you played the first hand about right. When the guy with the Queen hits his door card and checks, it doesn't smell right. When the guy with the Ace hits an open pair behind you, it looks like you're drawing to two outs or less.

As far as the second hand goes, I might refrain from capping on fourth street as one of your full house cards is out. I don't like laying down two pair for one more bet on the river in a big pot, but I think it's probably the best play. I mean, even if the other guy is capable of jamming with a slightly dead flush draw or a small pocket pair, he's going to draw out on Queens-up sometimes anyway. At this level, he's going to have Aces most of the time. Still, calling can't be that far wrong, and since you seem to be in doubt (otherwise, why post?), you can at least make him show you that you're beaten.

jon_1van

12-02-2004, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
it looks like you're drawing to two outs or less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't put any money in after he hit the Q

[ QUOTE ]
(otherwise, why post?),

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted because I already had to convert the hands for the real 4th street questions I had

And since I already had them converted....

MRBAA

12-02-2004, 11:36 AM

I think it's very likely he'd three bet fourth with just aces. I put him on that hand or better unless I have reason to think he's a maniac. By the time he three bets, I'm getting an overlay to call. If he makes an open pair on fifth I'll fold, and I'd fold on sixth against a very predictable player. But the pot is pretty big, so if I'm in doubt I'm calling. And if I do call sixth, I'm definitely calling the river (which is a good reason to consider a sixth street laydown).

SA125

12-02-2004, 12:19 PM

What I meant by some money in the pot was a loose call or two, like small or mid pair with lousy kicker, trying to sneak into the pot for the bring-in.

When a big card completes behind them and it's raised by a higher card, many times the loose callers will fold up their tent and let the big pairs clash. That compensates for a smaller ante. The action in both of your hands shows what I mean.

In hand 1 - Seat 1 and Seat 2 both called the bring-in and folded to the raises before seeing 4th. In hand 2 - Seat 6 called your complete and had to call the raise. But your raise and his position forced him to call 2 cold on 4th and he folded. Both cases of marginal hands quickly turned into dead money by bigger cards.