PP 20+2 Bubble Hand

[TacoVendor]

I will admit up front that I played this bad after the flop. I post here for a couple of reasons - 1. Putting it somewhere to make me remember since I realize now that this has creeped into my play over the last two weeks and thrashed my numbers; and 2. to see if the preflop move was proper.

The quick setting--
All of us play pretty tight and decent. The two seats before me were raising to steal blinds properly, the seat after me was shortstacked for quite a while and had just moved back up a couple of hands before. I appeared to be pushing too much mainly due to catching 66, 77, AKs, and JJ in that order. Each time I would put a max sized bet out with only a call on the AKs bet and a quick fold after the pot by the shortstack when the K hit the board.

An important note: every min-raise I made preflop had everyone else fold no matter what position I was in. We played 5 handed and 4 handed for quite a while.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="C00000">Hero (t2165)</font>
Button (t1575)
<font color="C00000">SB (t2950)</font>
BB (t1310)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls t300, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t1000) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t1000</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises to t2550 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t765 (All-In).

Turn: (t5315) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t5315) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t5315
<font color="green">Main Pot: t4530 (t4530), between Hero and SB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by SB (t4530).</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t785 (t785), returned to SB.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero has 5c Ac (two pair, kings and fives).
SB has 3c 3d (full house, threes full of kings).
Outcome: SB wins t5315. </font>

I see too clearly the flaw in my play but comments are appreciated. Any thoughts on the correct size flop bet to get the info? Since I over-committed myself I just went the rest of the way in. I know that if I had put out the proper size bet and had either a call or raise back at me I would have stopp leading it out. Does 1/2 pot bet here get the proper read? No, checking was not an option.

Thanks

[tigerite]

This is exactly why you push preflop with 10BB or less, once you have a hand you want to "go with". You end up committed as soon as you make any bet on the flop.

[ChrisV]

He had over 10BB.

The raise preflop should be 600, otherwise you price the blind in. With that size raise, allin on the flop is clear. If he outflopped you, tough.

[tigerite]

Big Blind is t200 (4 handed)

Hero (t2165)

Ok, _barely_ over 10BB, but close enough I'd say.. 10.5..

[ChrisV]

Yeah. You shouldn't push the 10BB rule though. If you make the pretty reasonable assumption that you're only getting reraised by pairs higher than 55 or dominating aces (we'll ignore stuff like KQ and also ignore AA), then you beat all those hands around 30% of the time, which makes the 10BB rule totally break even compared to raising 600 and folding. Personally I'd rather hold onto my 1400 chips than bust 70% of the time, given it's EV neutral. Raising allin with anything over 10BB with a hand like this is therefore out of the question for me. Even slightly less than 10BB makes me uncomfortable - something like 1950 chips is pretty marginal. The only reason raising to 600 is bad there is that you might cause the opponent to realise they have fold equity and reraise a hand they would have folded. But I think that's an argument for raising less hands, not for going allin more.

[tigerite]

I understand where you are coming from, and certainly with 5 or 6 players I wouldn't make this move. But it seems that it's 4 handed only, and so the fold equity is much higher if you push, because of the bubble aspect, also A-x suited becomes pretty strong with so few players. For me it's a close one between the 600 raise and push.

Unless the SB is a truly horrible player, he'll surely lay down 33 here with two much smaller stacks than he is, and only 100 committed into the pot, because calling it is most certainly -EV whether you use ICM, ChipEV, $EV or any other method. Lose and he becomes the short stack with close to zero folding equity.

[TacoVendor]

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly why you push preflop with 10BB or less, once you have a hand you want to "go with". You end up committed as soon as you make any bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing I think you are both missing is that this is a Pot Limit table. The max bet I could have put out is 600, min bet is the 400 I placed.

In a NL table I probably would have led out for 800 chips and then wheeled back if the SB called or came over the top. 800 shows I am committed but still leaves me folding room to be in line with the other two lower stacks at the table.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[tigerite]

Oops /images/graemlins/laugh.gif In that case 600, definitely.