Bet this river?

[Guy McSucker]

Party 5/10 6-max.

QdJd on the button. CO limps, I limp, SB completes, blinds check.

Flop: Jc 8c 7d.

SB bets. He will do this with any pair. BB calls, CO calls, I raise, all call.

BB is just very erratic, hard to put him on anything. CO is decent it seems.

Turn: 5h.

They check to me and I bet. They call.

River: 4d.

They check to me again.

Should I bet? If I do, should I call a check-raise?

Guy.

[Grisgra]

That's pretty annoying, and it depends a little on reads, but I probably value-bet it. Not obvious that someone would be hanging around with a 6 of all things. And yeah, I call a check-raise. It's one lousy bet, and I've seen enough phony river-raises at party to look them up.

[Trix]

bet-call.

[Guy McSucker]

Thanks guys.

I bet. SB CRed. I called. SB showed 8-6.

The decent playing opponent then launched into a lecture about how stupid I was to "bet top pair no kicker into three players with four to a straight on board". I guess he missed the part where they all checked twice, but I doubt everything I do these days (guess you've noticed that?) so...

Guy.

[Gazza]

[ QUOTE ]
QdJd on the button. CO limps, I limp

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Guy but that is just horrible

And yes bet on the end. And call a raise. The chances that a 6 is out is much less likely now they have checked to you

Gazza

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry Guy but that is just horrible


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you advocating raising or folding?

Bear in mind I can't win with QQ, JJ, TT or 99, so QJs might not be one I can play either... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Losing my mind,

Guy.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
QdJd on the button. CO limps, I limp

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Guy but that is just horrible


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I missed that the first time. Gazza is absolutely right -- this is a clear button raise.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

Gazza is absolutely right -- this is a clear button raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know that that is the forum mantra.

However, I don't understand it, so please humour me:

why is this a clear raise?

It's not usually the best hand preflop. You have the button anyway. If you get a nice flop you don't mind playing it multiway. If you miss the flop after a raise and bet the flop regardless, someone with a pair will call you down. You'll probably bet the turn too. That's 2.5BBs to miss the flop versus 0.5 if you limp. You miss more flops than you hit. So why are we raising again?

Now I realise my head is not on straight at the moment, but please, if someone could explain why raising is best here, I'd be most grateful.

Guy.

[wheelz]

[ QUOTE ]
You miss more flops than you hit. So why are we raising again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your opponent also misses more flops than he hits. He doesn't know what you're holding. Getting the blinds out increases your chances of winning that much more.

That post definitely sounded like the words of a man on a bad run. Hang in there Guy.

[helpmeout]

You have CO open limping which suggests he is a weak player.

SB and BB have random hands which QJs is way better than.

Do you want SB or BB getting a cheap look with A3o or K5o?

When you and CO both miss you have the initiative so most times he will fold on the flop. You also have position on him so if you can check the turn or river if you think you are beat.

[Jeff W]

Pre flop you have a raise for value. You are against two random hands and a CO limper. Although it feels like you can never knock an opponent out at 5/10 6-max, you will take down many flops with a bluff and you stand to win the maximum with your made hands and draws.

Let's say that you're right and calling is better than raising. How much of an error in small bets do you think raising is?

On the river, you have a value bet. If SB or CO check/raises, then you should consider folding depending on your reads because it is unlikely they will check/raise the field with a hand <QJ. You should call the BB's check/raise because he is erratic.

[Gazza]

I don't know if I have much too add to what others have said.

First of all QJs is a strong hand. It is my 9th best hand scoring 0.7. It plays well both multi handed and heads up when you have the initiative (you take down most flops with an Ace straight away for example after your pre-flop aggression).

But the hand is not really the main point here. You should raise every single time you decide to play in such situations.

How low you go depends on your style but it's so important to make the blinds pay to play (don't you just love it when you get a free play in the BB - I certainly do) and to take charge of the hand for the subsequent rounds.

Button + preflop raise usually allows you to manipulate the field and the betting. You can get away from the hand cheaply when you miss and take free cards when you need them.
I mean, against passive opponents one small bet can get you to the river which is pretty valuable with hands like gutshots and overcards which you would have had to fold otherwise.

Gazza