AJs gets away from me.

[Glintir]

I reviewed this hand after my elimination, and at first, I thought I played it poorly. Then I felt I didn't. Now I feel I did.

My reads on the villains aren't that hot. I haven't played with them before, and all I really know is they both play a bit loose. Eggo's PF call made me nervous, but not enough to drop my hand. What I can't decide is if I should have folded on the flop. Hindsight says yes, but I don't trust hindsight. Any comments?

Seat 1: Cassell ($960 in chips)
Seat 2: kickboy ($985 in chips)
Seat 3: MrPiazon ($2,715 in chips)
Seat 5: horn5150 ($1,805 in chips)
Seat 6: glintir [ J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif,A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ] ($2,110 in chips)
Seat 7: kickazzosx ($1,225 in chips)
Seat 8: auheld1 ($2,315 in chips)
Seat 9: wilson50 ($510 in chips)
Seat 10: LetgomyEggo ($2,375 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
wilson50 posts blind ($25), LetgomyEggo posts blind ($50).

PRE-FLOP
4 folds, glintir bets $150, 2 folds, wilson50 bets $485 and is all-in, LetgomyEggo calls $460, glintir calls $360.

FLOP [board cards 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif,7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif,A /images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
LetgomyEggo bets $1,865 and is all-in, glintir calls $1,600 and is all-in.

TURN [board cards 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif,7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif,A /images/graemlins/spade.gif,9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif ]


RIVER [board cards 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif,7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif,A /images/graemlins/spade.gif,9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif,5 /images/graemlins/club.gif ]


SHOWDOWN
results in white
<font color="white">
LetgomyEggo shows [ AH,KH ]
glintir shows [ JD,AD ]
wilson50 shows [ 9C,AC ]
LetgomyEggo wins $265, LetgomyEggo wins $3,200, wilson50 wins $1,530.
</font>

[slickterp]

when someone goes all in, and another person calls them, AJ probably ain't gonna do it. fold PF

[rjb03]

I'd have folded preflop. You can't really bet for information so you have to rely on a read which you said you don't have.

[tigerite]

This is why you don't raise with a hand like AJs but with junk, because it's harder to put down than say J5off would be here. It's not a bad one to try to steal with but once you're played back at, unless you have them majorly covered and it's one all-in back to you, you've got to fold it preflop.

[tigerite]

Also it is risky to try to "steal" with small stacks still to act for this very reason - the odds almost cry out for a call.. but you have to lay it down.. they won't be playing back at you with junk. I had to lay down KJo in a similar situation in another tournament. He had JJ so I was bang on to do so.

[Glintir]

So if the short stack had gone all in, and the BB had folded. Would you have called it at that point?

I like the argument that he won't play back at me without something, but does that negate the strength of this hand? Do I want to be folding to 88 against someone i've got almost a 4 to 1 chip advantage over?

[rjb03]

[ QUOTE ]
So if the short stack had gone all in, and the BB had folded. Would you have called it at that point?

I like the argument that he won't play back at me without something, but does that negate the strength of this hand? Do I want to be folding to 88 against someone i've got almost a 4 to 1 chip advantage over?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not folding because the short stack pushed. You're folding because somebody cold called a raise and reraise all in.

[tigerite]

Yes - you call if you have them covered - you definitely don't have the big stack covered and you have to figure him for calling with "something" that's likely better than AJs.

Now if it was just the small stack and it was back to you, then this is an easy call.

[ChrisV]

Neither of these comments make any sense. That it's easier to fold AJs than J5o is true but irrelevant. Just fold when it's right. If you like you can pretend you have J5o and fold. The fact that you consider a call means that perhaps calling has greater equity than folding - which is a direct advantage over J5. With J5 you'll be in much worse shape when someone smooth calls.

As regards the riskiness of stealing across small stacks, the small stack wasn't the problem here, it was the large stack with the massive hand. The small stack was dominated and in dire straits. Once again, you can always pretend you're up against a big stack and fold. If you call it's because you have equity on the call. Just because a situation makes you uncomfortable doesn't automatically mean it's a bad situation for you.

[tigerite]

I simply mean from the point of view of the original poster, AJs looks a nice hand and so he's tempted to play it for the small re-raise back to him, whereas he wouldn't be with a junk hand. This is mentioned in TPFAP, even? I'm not saying he was wrong to raise with it here - I would have too - but after the big stack smooth calls the all-in I'm out of this hand like a flash.

As for if you are smooth called with J5, I don't think you're in such a bad shape - I just play it like a BB hand - and you can often hit ridiculous flops that they have no hope in hell of putting you on for having "hit".

[ChrisV]

Well, agreed about being out of the hand in a flash. I'd beat the small stack into the pot if it wasnt for that call, though.

My point was simply that there are no circumstances under which id rather hold J5 than AJ when raising.

Sklansky's piece of advice about not raising when you won't know what to do if reraised has some truth but isn't a good general rule. It doesn't apply preflop in SNGs because the chances of you being reraised are fairly small and a call is not a viable option at any reasonable blind size.

If you've played a lot of SNG's you'll probably automatically feel it's dangerous to steal raise with a stack of 10 BB. People often express this by saying that if they're reraised they won't know what to do. That isn't the real reason since they can always fold, just the same as they do when they have 13 BB. The reason the raise is dangerous is that it puts the largest possible percentage of your stack on the line while offering possible fold equity to the opponent.

&lt;/tangent&gt;

[tigerite]

Absolutely. It's very risky indeed to steal raise with 10BB or less, but not because I fear folding, more that if you do have to fold your stack then becomes 7BB and you're in a bit of a "panic mode" situation. And yes, an opponent can just come over the top of you and then you're in a huge quandary. I don't really know the best way around this though, do you?

[Glintir]

That's what I thought you meant, but something about the wording made it unclear. My thoughts as the hand played out were correct then, but my actions were not. When the small stack pushed, I thought, YES! Then when the big stack called, I thought, UH OH! But I failed to follow through on the Uh Oh portion.

[ChrisV]

Play tighter. I'm much tighter with 8-11ish BB than I am with 12-25 or with 1-7.

[morgan180]

The call of the all-in screams that you are either dominated or at best a slight dog/coin flip situation (if the caller would call the ss all-in with something like TT.)

I agree with you - the short stack pushes -- YES! the big stack calls -- you gotta put him on a premium hand that he thinks he can take the little guy out ... walk away!

JMHO

[CarlSpackler]

I like your preflop raise. If the short stack goes all-in, and the big blind folds, then I think you have to call. Once the big blind, who is virtually the chip leader, cold calls the short stack's all-in, I think you have to fold. You're getting a little more than 3 to 1 on your pot odds by calling, but I don't think AJs is a strong enough hand to do so in this situation. Look at the information you gained by raising. You have to think the short stack has at least an ace with a decent kicker, KQ/KJ, or a pocket pair here. I would put the cold caller on a pocket pair or AQ/AK.

Unless you hit the flop really hard (i.e. harder than just flopping an Ace), you're going to have to lay down your hand to a bet or raise. Even if the cold caller checks the flop, and you bet, what are you going to do when he comes over the top of you?

[CarlSpackler]

I like your preflop raise. If the short stack goes all-in, and the big blind folds, then I think you have to call. Once the big blind, who is virtually the chip leader, cold calls the short stack's all-in, I think you have to fold. You're getting a little more than 3 to 1 on your pot odds by calling, but I don't think AJs is a strong enough hand to do so in this situation. Look at the information you gained by raising. You have to think the short stack has at least an ace with a decent kicker, KQ/KJ, or a pocket pair here. I would put the cold caller on a pocket pair or AQ/AK.

Unless you hit the flop really hard (i.e. harder than just flopping an Ace), you're going to have to lay down your hand to a bet or raise. Even if the cold caller checks the flop, and you bet, what are you going to do when he comes over the top of you?

[pacman544]

Unless this guy is a complete idiot, he has to have u beat on the flop. If the guys a decent player hes not gonna try to create a side pot with anything that aj can beat due to the side pot. Tendenicies of any intelligent player ussually change once a side pot is created with a bet. He most likely is putting u on some ace or some pocket pair, he dosent want to give u a free set and wants to force u to make a good laydown.