The worst mistake!

[zephyr]

I've recently moved back down to the 20's while adjusting to 8 tabling. I wrote an essay way back on the common mistakes that players make in SNG's. It included all the common ones, like playing too many hands early, chasing too many draws, folding too much heads up etc.

Recently though, I've really began to understand the mid-end game of SNG's a lot better. In doing so, I think I've discovered the largest mistake that opponents make. It's nothing profound, in fact I'm sure most of you already know it. It related to the gap concept.

I'd be willing to say that bad players miss in the range of 3-7 steal attempts in levels 4-6 of a typical SNG.

That is all.

Only my opinion,

Zephyr

[pshreck]

I always seem to steal 1 x too many /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[pshreck]

By the way... how is the adjusting go. I was a 35% longterm ROI 4 tabling 22's.... and I was about a 1% ROI 8 tabling (a little over 200 tourneys, not exactly long term, but I felt I was actually playing well and not getting unlucky, which made me just return to 4 tabling). Let me know.

[Gramps]

Shhhhhhhh! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[zephyr]

I've actually had an amazing first 100 tourneys (it's nice to be able to play 100+/week while only spending 2 hours a day playing). I've had an unsustainably high ROI and a $/hr rate > $100. Once I get to 500 tourneys if my ROI is > 15%, i'm going to try 12 tabling.

Doesn't quite match up to my 359% ROI in the 100's though. I don't want to hear anything about my sample size either /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Zephyr

[SuitedSixes]

I would like to read your essay, do you remember the post title or the time frame so that I may have better luck doing a search? Thanks.

-66s

[zephyr]

Here's the link,

Be warned, its all pretty obvious stuff.

Mistakes (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=892 630&Forum=,,,,,f22,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Limit= 25&Main=892630&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=1136 4&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&old ertype=&bodyprev=#Post892630)

[texasrattlers]

[ QUOTE ]
It's nothing profound, in fact I'm sure most of you already know it. It related to the gap concept.

I'd be willing to say that bad players miss in the range of 3-7 steal attempts in levels 4-6 of a typical SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not being profound myself /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I fail to see how gap concept relates to missed steal opportunities in levels 4-6. Care to spell it out for a newbie? Thanks!

[tigerite]

Thanks, zephyr. Although I do steal a bit, I think I wasn't doing it enough. Just won an SNG because of this advice, although it was a strange one, 5-handed with blinds at 25/50. So I had to start my steals at level 3.. lol /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's nothing profound, in fact I'm sure most of you already know it. It related to the gap concept.

I'd be willing to say that bad players miss in the range of 3-7 steal attempts in levels 4-6 of a typical SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not being profound myself /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I fail to see how gap concept relates to missed steal opportunities in levels 4-6. Care to spell it out for a newbie? Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

Something like this, I would say.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (5 handed)

UTG (t1432)
MP (t3695)
Hero (t1628)
SB (t520)
BB (t725)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t225



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed)

BB (t1882)
UTG (t2850)
Hero (t1628)
Button (t1065)
SB (t575)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t250</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t400

[tigerite]

Oh, and..

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (4 handed)

BB (t1882)
UTG (t2850)
Hero (t2303)
SB (t965)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t250</font>, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t400

[byronkincaid]

My problem is everyones calling at the moment, it's like they can see my cards or something. I've had people call with 86 when i've got 63, uncanny.

[texasrattlers]

Cool. Thanks for the examples.

So the point is steal more w/ say 4-6 players left? I wish I could see how this relates to the gap concept, but I guess this will just have to wait til I am ready to understand such a thing. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif Also, how is this any different from wmajik's article discussed previously, if at all?

[tigerite]

I may be wrong, it's just how I play. I think by the gap concept he means the earlier the position you attempt the steal in, the more "power" it has in the eyes of your opponents. I don't think it's just when down to 4-6 players either, but I guess it's optimal at this level.

[zephyr]

The gap concept applies because you will be open rasining with a large range of hands, and calling with only a small one. Most bad players open raise with the same hands that they call with in the mid-late stages of an SNG.

This is very similar to wmajik's article, except his dealt specifically with stealing from the SB.

Zephyr

[texasrattlers]

Great! This makes sense now. I think this may be a leak in my game. I am fine with the tight early play and the manic late play (this last part took some time getting used to /images/graemlins/smile.gif), but I think I let my stacks dwindle too much during mid-level play (BB 100-200 on Stars). I find myself thinking "Wait until the BB is 400 when the blinds are worth stealing"; I start pushing aggressively at this point. The net result is that I am probably a lot shorter stacked when the BB reaches 400 or late in the BB200 rounds than I should be. So, I will try to open raise in the middle rounds as you suggest and see how it goes.

Thanks for your excellent post!

[tigerite]

I am guessing that you only steal when you can get away from a hand though, i.e. when you have more than 10BB, am I right?

[zephyr]

On party its typically the opposite. The most common situation is in level 5 (bb 200), where I have less than 8xBB. My steal is a push. It takes a lot more skill to be able to steal with a stack &gt; 8xBB, as there is the added option of being called and having to play the hand after the flop.

Zephyr

[tigerite]

Ah, well yeah, under 8bb is a different animal. Although I might say 6-7bb I tend to push with all manner of crap at this level, as it's the only time I'll have any fold equity. It's between the 7 and 10 that I find it a bit hard to justify a steal.

[UMTerp]

I've done pretty well open-raising for 2.5-3BB when my stack is 10+BB. Yes, you should still be pushing/folding with &lt;10BB. I prefer to open for 3BB always, but I lately I started raising the 2.5 BB when my stack is in the 10-13BB range. This way, if the plan is to steal but fold to a reraise, I don't feel quite as bad about it. It's hard for me to fold that J9 or something similar when I open for 3BB and only had 11BB in my stack to start the hand. It's 8BB to call into a 15.5BB (11 + 3 +1.5) pot (1.94:1), and you have to be pretty certain of your read for this fold to be correct with 6 players left. For some reason, I don't feel quite as bad about folding when I open-raise for 2.5BB and it's 1.76:1 to call (15BB in pot, 8.5BB to call). As far as I can tell, the 2.5BB raise is still working as a steal just as often as the 3BB. Also, I make this same 2.5BB raise with my big hands with this stack size for deception purposes. Something to try maybe.

[tigerite]

You make a very good point with that. Sometimes I do the same, at the 100 level for instance I raise to 250 quite often (I think I did in the examples I posted). Even sometimes 225. Then at 200 it tends to be 450-500. However at 50 when I steal (which does happen when the crazies have been knocked out and only 6 or so left) I do 3BB.

[zephyr]

The 3xBB steal is a highly effective weapon as well. It is however, a much more difficult one to yield, and in party sng's once you're at level 5 and beyond, you typically have less than 10xBB anyways.

I've also found the 2.5xBB openraise to be almost as effective as the 3xBB openraise.

Zephyr

[Scuba Chuck]

Zephyr referred to the wmajik's article.

What is this article? Can you provide a link?

Thanks, Scuba

[texasrattlers]

[ QUOTE ]
Zephyr referred to the wmajik's article.

What is this article? Can you provide a link?

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks to Irieguy for starting this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1153326&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=) .