battling the other big stack

So we are down to the final two tables of a NLHE event. Top 4 pay.


I have about 7K and am second in chips on my table. Chip leader is clearly newish and has been getting some good hands and making some dubious calls/bets but getting lucky. He's helping his own cause by playing aggressively however. As well, we are most likely 1-2 in chips overall in the tournament, since during the rebuy period for the first hour, the vast majority of rebuys came from our table due to myself and another player jamming all the time to get more chips into the tournament (hoping to decrease blind pressure and make the tournament more skill based after rebuys end).


Blinds are 100-200 at this point. 3 people limp to me (including chip leader) and I limp on the button with 88. SB calls, BB checks.


Flop: 10d 8d 5h


So I flop a set. Checked to me and I decide to take a gamble and check as well.


Turn: Kd


Completing the flush. SB checks, BB bets 1000, all fold to chip leader who raises to 4000. BB is a reasonable player who has been playing fairly solid. He has about 1.5K left and appears to be calling.


My play: ?

We need a little more info. How many chips in play ? How many chips are required to be comfortable at the final table (normally about 10% of the total in play). In general, if you have more than this amount you will want to avoid confrontation with other big stacks, and just keep chipping at the small ones. If you have less than this, you don't mind trying to double up when you have the best of it.


On this particular hand, why did you check the flop ? There are way too many draws out to be comfortable in a 6-way pot. You need to eliminate as many drawing hands if you can, or at least make them pay, and it sounds unlikely that everyone will fold. As for the particular decision facing a bet and a raise - I would have to be there really.


Finally are you sure about jamming early on for the reasons you specify ? Sounds like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut ! Extra chips in the tournament is all very well providing someone else is paying for them.


Andy.

According to my calculations (you don't mention if there are any antes at this level) if you call and the BB calls you will be laying 4000 to get 7500, before any river bets are figured in. This means you are getting slighly 2-1 on your draw to make a full house. If we further assume that both had made their flushes (seems unlikely but possible) you're outs are live except for the possible 5 of diamonds being in someone's hand. This means that there would be (3) Kings, (3) 10's, (2) or (3) 5's that fill you up and (1) 8 that makes you quads. My math is not the best but that means you have either 9 or 10 out to make a better hand than a flush out of the 46 remaining unseen cards. Roughly 1 in 4.5 you will improve on the river. Assuming you make the call and get there and get all of the other player's chips you are still not getting the implied odds necessary to draw. That's all assuming they both have made flushes.


Other possibilities, are that one had a made flush and the other is on a big King or two pair. So a King or a 10 could make your hand and you still get beat. (although a player being on 10-5 seems unlikely) K10 is a definite possiblity.


It is also possible that you are already behind by a set of Kings or 10's. With so many limpers seeing the flop the possibitities are many.


But the main point is that (A) you are already beat or (B) you are ahead but drawing very slim or (C) you are behind to the flush but not getting proper odds to go for it. All of these factors mean that you put yourself into a tough spot by checking the flop. I try to never slowplay even top sets when there are 2 of a suit out their on the flop and more than 1 other player. Had you made a big bet on the flop you might have won it outright or gotten heads up with 1 other person which would now make your position much better to figure and handle.


I would fold here, as tough a laydown as that sounds, it's probably correct unless you have a specific read on the other players making you feel that you still have the beat hand (ie: one is on the nut flush draw and one has 2 pair). In that scenario only, you could call and hope for a favorable card or move all-in over the top and then you may win a side pot against the other player.


The game of no-limit is so complicated, which is why I think it is more difficult than limit (let's not start that argument again). But the simple fact is that you made a tough spot by your checking the flop. Only you have the needed info to make the right decision at this point. But, clearly, mucking means you lose no more than the original 200 limp and you still have your stack. Not unlike slowplaying KK UTG and seeing a dreaded ace hit the flop. You still have time to get away from this hand cheaply.


It seems the smart move to me but set up by your slighty dangerous check on an unfavorable flop.


I'd like to hear other comments and hear the results.


Keep playing hard!

You would have gained much needed info about the player's holding had you bet the flop. This is another resason for not getting too greedy and slowplaying. Had anyone called a substatial bet by you, you would have been able to narrow down the possible hands that they are calling or raising with.

"So I flop a set. Checked to me and I decide to take a gamble and check as well."


Ouch. With 1 or 2 players in maybe I check but with 5 others I don't check. You have position and your bet won't necessarily be taken as a bet of strength.


Turn: Kd


So there is a pot sized bet and a decent size raise. The raise by the chip leader could be 2-pair, flush draw and of course a made flush. You of course are well ahead of all but the made flush (or TT/KK) but you have outs to beat the flush. If someone has KT then your outs to beat the flush are less since another K or T gives them a bigger boat.


With 7000 or so chips and 2nd chip position I think folding has some merit. The painful part is you most likely will see the other 2 hands!


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@hotmail.com

As I say the chip leader was newish but playing aggressively. I figured I could convince him to put his stack on the line on the turn if he caught any piece of it. Fair to say that I gambled, I admit. And it was quite possibly a mistake.


I gave it a fair deal of pained thought. Then I folded. BB called.


The hands:


BB: 55 for a lower flopped set.

chip leader: AK with Ad.


River blanked and I would have won. My real thinking was that chip leader would give away all his chips soon enough and I wanted to be around and certain I was going to take them when that time came. So I wasn't willing to gamble here on the chance that he had the flush.


Thanks for all responses.

"How many chips in play"


Hard to say; maybe 100K, maybe less.


"On this particular hand, why did you check the flop"


Trying to trap chip leader who was very much a level 1 thinker (What do I have?). Certainly a play of questionable merit.


"are you sure about jamming early on for the reasons you specify"


Well theres a couple of reasons. First, rebuys are only $5 so its not a big deal. Second, I like to use this tournament as my tilt runoff for the week (a la Negreanu's "Party Day"). Third, I do believe that having more chips in the game helps. Fourth, people don't believe me later and I double or triple through with AA (I don't do anything tricky, I just push in preflop and get called). And finally, people often get mad ("you aren't playing serious!!!" - I am playing the whole rebuy period blind and finding another player willing to do the same and jam all the way) and quit the tournament, leaving their dead money.

Thanks David,


I'll buy most of that but I think you realise that checking the flop really created the problem for you. Once you were faced with the tough decision on the turn you could have got it wrong either way. At least you got it wrong in the way that keeps you in the tournament :-)


Andy.


PS If your jamming early on has got you a good loose/maniac image then even more reason to bet the flop as you will still have a good chance of a payoff from an opponent or two - you just don't want all five of them to see the turn.


PPS Getting players mad for any reason often has more drawbacks than benefits, even if they are delayed till the next game.

"Getting players mad for any reason often has more drawbacks than benefits, even if they are delayed till the next game"


I forgot the other reason I started doing this. This is a "high hand tournament", so if you had a high hand during the week, you get free entry. The casino then adds in a couple of c-notes to the prizes. So my goal is to piss everyone off so much that eventually I'm the only one who shows up and I collect the money.


Last week, my friend and I made two people quit during the rebuy portion. Then one of them got on our table again this week..."happy" would not be the correct term for him (especially since I busted him again).