AK, call 2 all ins?

[theBruiser500]

$500 Pokerstars touranment, blinds of 75/150, I have 6200, above average. UTG has 3200 and limps (no read). I limp in LP with AK, I don't want to get limp reraised. BB moves all in for 1300. Then UTG moves all in quickly.

BB range of hands is very big I figure. During the tournament I moved all in myself after some thought but am rethinking that now. It seems close to me. THoughts?

[willie24]

i would call and i dont think its very close.

also i definitely would have raised on the button. what was your reason for limping?

[ZootMurph]

So you need to call 3050 with 4875 in the pot with AK and two allins...

I'd throw it away in this situation. Why throw in half your chips getting 1.6:1 pot odds where at least one person probably has a pocket pair and the other has at least ONE of your outs? Althought it's a nice pot, I'm not ready to throw half my chips away for it. It's just too early in the tournament (Round 5) to be running unnecessary races. Also, your stack is in good shape, giving me another reason not to race.

I'm probably one of the few who would fold it here. Of course, I would have raised rather than limped, also, giving me even pot odds when it got back to me.

[willperkins]

I would have raised preflop.

However, if I were in your spot, I would have folded to the push. I would not want to get involved with two others if I had the amount of chips that you have and the blinds still relatively small.

[theBruiser500]

Willie and willie24 you ahve provided no reasoning. Also, if you read my post you would have seen that the reason I didn't raise was because I was afraid of getting limp reraised.

[slickpoppa]

Sounds like UTG has a small/medium pair and wants to isolate himself in a possible coinflip. BB could have anything. If UTG has a low PP and the other is dominated with something like AT, you still don't have the odds to call. For example, if you are against 88 and AT, your equity in the pot is only about 34%, and you're only getting 1.55:1 odds on the call. You could have the best hand right now, but I think you're better off playing it safe and folding.


Crap, I just realized that there is a side pot, and that f's up the calculations. Now that I think about it, I might call.

[willie24]

ok, ok. i misread the "afraid of limp-reraise" thing. i was thinking about it terms of you limping and being raised. was therefore thinking, "huh?"

mostly, i didn't get what you were saying because it would not normally occur to me. the only hand a normal player would limp reraise with is probably AA. what are the chances he has AA? how many players have you seen limp UTG in tourneys and how many of them end up having AA? furthermore, the only 2 hands you are signficiantly behind are AA and KK. why are you scared? this is a great opportunity to take a nice pot right now with limited risk (meaning that you still are likely +EV if you are called. )

what do you think BB is likely to have? what do you think UTG is likely to have? if neither of them have AA or KK this is a MUST-CALL.

the math is pretty easy: you are like 45% or something vs a lower pair. you are like 40% (or something close to that- 35% at worst) vs 2 lower pairs- which is way ahead. against AQ or AJ or KQ you are way ahead...so against AJ in the BB and TT UTG (i think something like this would be the most likely scenario) you probably about 37% or so for the main pot (that is an educated guess), which is way ahead, and about 45% for the side pot, which is slightly behind, but not very important considering your huge profit in the main pot if you call. If UTG has AA you are screwed. if BB has AA or KK you are screwed. neither of these is very likely.

the profit you make with your call when they don't have those hands will cover your loss when they do.

[zaxx19]

Seems like a pretty easy fold to me bc you got too figure an ace is out at the very least, and bc your stack is fine of course im tight weak as we all know lol. Plus although the chances of an AA or KK is little the limp reraise raises these chances by a factor of at least 2X.

[SossMan]

Looks like there's enough dead money to take a coin flip vs. UTG.

What is UTG's range of limpreraising hands? If it's something like AA-JJ, AK, then I don't like it as much. If it's more like AA-99, AK/AQ, then I think you have a clear call.
All in all, it's probably marginally plusEV.

I still don't understand not raising the first time through, though.

[theBruiser500]

Maybe I should have raised preflop, I don't think I lose a lot by not doing it though. For simplicites sake let's just say BB has equal stack to UTG and my odds are 2:1. I think the best way to look at this is some sample equities:

99 vs. jj vs. ak = 39%
99 vs. aj vs. ak = 34%
99 vs. ak vs. ak = 22%
99 vs. kk vs. ak = 30%
at vs. aj vs. ak = 50%

I don't know... Looks like it doesn't matter much either way. Maybe a call is a little better.

[willie]

hey hey, don't go draggin me into this i didn't say anything /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[hectorjelly]

I dont understand not raising preflop because if utg does have AA or KK then it will be cheaper and easier to find out preflop, and these tend to be an average players limp reraising hands. Also with the action that followed I think the fold would be a lot easier because UTG would be showing a lot more strength by moving in after your raised.

[sirio11]

I agree with Will, would have raised preflop, but if not, then the decision its not that close. You should fold here.

[tigerite]

Not raising preflop here because of an UTG limper is very weak-tight at this stage of the tournament. You should have done a standard raise. This makes it a lot easier to get away from the hand because now if BB pushes and UTG pushes all over the top - it's a _definite_ fold. Here, I think it is a bit closer than the others suggest, but I lean towards the fold, too.

[theBruiser500]

The problem with raising though to allow myself to get away from the hand is that UTG might limp reraise with a range of hands, some of which I don't want to make myself fold against. In the hand, I called they had 99 (BB) JJ UTG, I lost.

[willie24]

if you raise and he is limp-reraising with a large range of hands, that doesn't hurt you. you are going to take the pot preflop quite a bit, and you're going to have slightly +EV allin situations sometimes too, which is what happened.

if you limp and then call an allin you still get the slightly favorable allin situations, but you lose the pot-steals, which is what you really want.

obviously, knowing what your opponents had, your call was right.

[kalooki45]

I'm an idiot I guess, but I'd fold it. I just HATE putting my whole stack on the line so early on--I've done it, but I always feel like a chump when I do..
I've lost with AK more times than I can count..to absolute trash often enough.
I know it's got great odds, but if you lose your whole stack on one hand early on, the odds don't matter--you may have run into a couple big PPs.
Yesterday holding KK, I got a min-raise in front, and reraised, and got an all-in--i SMELLED those Aces...lol....but then again didn't know the player, and moved. It WAS aces, and I lost..my cowboys took a rocket ride...LOL
<---still kicking self

[zaxx19]

Dont ever regret (with rare rare exceptions) getting all the money in with KK. Ill take KK 3 way alll day early in a tourney I;m still probably just dodging aces. If you cant put the money in with KK you are just gonna blind yourself off man.

[Apathy]

It seems to me that raising does not help bruiser get away from his hand easier in this situation because even though it may define the BB's hand better (debatable) it ties bruiser to the pot by giving him odds to call. The people who are saying raise for information (i.e. raise then fold after an allin) really arent making sense to me since they are ignoring the difference in pot odds given by raising.

-CPJ

[kalooki45]

thanks, zaxx i feel better then! /images/graemlins/smile.gif