Two bubble hands from a home tournament

[nolanfan34]

Hey guys,

Two hands I'd like some comments on. This was from a home tournament I played in last night, 21 players started, top 4 paid into the money. Both hands came when we were down to the final 6 players.

Some general notes - just a dream group of players overall. Virtually all had little experience, besides what they had seen on TV. Play ranged from extrememly tight by some, to loose calling station play by others. I'm probably one of maybe two others that you'd call a TAG.

Onto the hands:

Hand 1 - Blinds 75-150. 6-handed. I have probably 2500 or so, which puts me about tied for 4th in chips at the time. I pick up 77 UTG+1. UTG folds, I raise to 550. Folded to the BB, who thinks, and calls the additional 400.

A note on the BB. He came to the final table as a big chip leader. Has knocked out people left and right, but at this point has seen his stack dwindle down to where he only has me outchipped by 500-700 maybe. When he has bet aggressively, he has generally shown down a decent hand, but he's also seeing almost every flop, so the PF call means only a slightly better than average hand.

Anyway, the flop comes Q43r. BB bets out 300. What's your move?

Hand 2 - Later into the final table. Blinds 100-200, still 6-handed. I'm now the low stack at the table with 1300. I post 200 in the BB, and look down to see 33. 3 people limp, and the SB completes, so there's 1000 in the pot at this point.

What's your move? Why? FWIW, the chance of being called by more than one person if I move in, is higher than the whole table folding. People like to see flops.

Thanks in advance for comments. These were the only two hands of the night that I thought I faced a tough decision, and I think I wish I had played both of them differently.

[adanthar]

With 6 left, 15 BB and four calling stations at the table I think I'd just limp the sevens or fold them depending on how often there was a raise behind. I'd definitely fold to the BB's flop bet.

Hand 2 in this situation is an autocheck.

[nolanfan34]

Pity bump. I know this isn't some exciting official tournament thread, but I was hoping for a couple more comments, even if it's just to say that you agree with the one responder so far.

After months of playing mostly limit, I think my NL instincts have gotten a bit rusty.

[woodguy]

Hand 1 BB's flop bet of 300 into a pot of 1175 is either a trap or screams weakness. If he hadn't shown the ability to trap like this before I'd push my last 2000 over top of this bet, but I am aggressive over weak bets to a fault.
If I know he could bet 300 here with AQ or QQ into the muck it goes.

edit: I'll open raise 77 6 handed every time (unless LP's were re-popping a lot, then I might limp re-raise all in)

Hand 2- check PF. If someone is going to call you are at best 55:45, at worst a big dog. Do you have 1300 before posting or after?
Its a little closer if you are down to 1100 after posting, but I'd rather openpush J9o from the button or CO than push here with all the limpers.

Regards,
Woodguy

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 BB's flop bet of 300 into a pot of 1175 is either a trap or screams weakness. If he hadn't shown the ability to trap like this before I'd push my last 2000 over top of this bet, but I am aggressive over weak bets to a fault.
If I know he could bet 300 here with AQ or QQ into the muck it goes.

Hand 2- check PF. If someone is going to call you are at best 55:45, at worst a big dog. Do you have 1300 before posting or after?
Its a little closer if you are down to 1100 after posting, but I'd rather openpush J9o from the button or CO than push here with all the limpers.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

His 300 bet into that pot either screams "call me!" or "I've got squat and I'm hoping you'll fold". I think it's the later and I'd push and take my chances with the pocket pair, I don't think he's got the A/Q or Q/Q here.

As far as the 3/3 hand, I don't think you'll move everyone off, just limp in or check or whatever it was you could do at the time that's cheapest and hope for a good flop. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 BB's flop bet of 300 into a pot of 1175 is either a trap or screams weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you still think the same thing when it's an opponent who likely has no concept of pot odds/size? Most of the guys I was playing against weren't sophisticated in their playing experience to go through that thought process I don't think. They generally would just bet on the flop about 2x the BB. It was weird.

Against a thinking opponent I would see that as a fishy bet. But against this guy, it was hard to determine, which made the decision a bit tougher. I don't disagree with your line of thinking though, it's probably a fold/all-in situation.

Of course if he has a Q, then I'm basically drawing to 2-outs, if he calls me.

[TripleQ]

From my experience fishy people tend to bet 2nd and 3rd pair the same way they'd bet top pair. I wouldn't be suprised if he had A3 or A4.. and would call a push with that. I'd push.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you still think the same thing when it's an opponent who likely has no concept of pot odds/size? Most of the guys I was playing against weren't sophisticated in their playing experience to go through that thought process I don't think. They generally would just bet on the flop about 2x the BB. It was weird.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeesh. Against a player like that his bet probably doesn't have any hidden meanings. You were probably right to fold as he may not have bet the flop unless he hit it.

I find myself giving others players too much credit when I play home games as some of the play defies description.

For instance, on Thursday or Firday afternoons (usually very slow at my shop) I play $10/head PL Omaha8 turbo SnG's with 5 of my employees.

I'll be in there betting the pot with nut low and 2nd nut flush high and get called down with 2 pair (no low) or worse.

I find players like this can call with nothing, but rarely bet with nothing.

Regards,
Woodguy

[nolanfan34]

Well, thanks for the responses. I knew afterward that I pretty much f-ed up both hands, especially hand one.

So in hand one, after stewing for a bit, I made the worst move possible and decided to call and see the turn. I decided on that move for two reasons, one, I thought there was a good chance I could push him off a hand if an A or K fell on the turn. I had a tight image overall, and thought my opponent was capable of folding a Q there if I made a big bet on the turn. Two, I thought there was also a chance that he'd just check to me on the turn, as some of these guys were showing flop aggression, but would slow down a bit if they didn't take the pot down on the flop.

I had also decided that his flop bet could mean middle pair, as well as a Q.

The problem is the turn was a 4, and he bet out 400 this time. Given my read, I was almost positive I was probably drawing to 2-outs of some sort, and mucked.

In hindsight, I think folding to the flop bet probably would have been OK.

In hand 2, I thought there was a decent chance I could pick up the pot right there. I really didn't think there was a higher PP out there, as most of these guys would wake up with a raise if they found a pair. I thought if I was called, I was probably a coin-flip favorite. So I moved in my last 1100.

Sure enough, I had one caller, who had KQo. Q hit on the flop and I was gone in 6th.

I think I made a bad decision there not because of the result, but my thought process at the time. I knew there was a chance I could triple up if I had multiple callers. But I didn't give enough thought to how two callers would affect my equity in the hand. I could have easily been called by KQ and JT, or KJ and 87, etc, and would have had to dodge a lot of bullets or hit a set. Even though I was short stacked, I probably could have waited one more orbit to see if I picked up a better hand.

Thanks again for the responses.

[SossMan]

Push hand 1 since it's unlikely that he flopped better than you and your hand is vulnerable.

I would check hand 2 and hope for a set. I don't think you have much, if any, folding equity which is what I would prefer.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
So in hand one, after stewing for a bit, I made the worst move possible and decided to call and see the turn. I decided on that move for two reasons, one, I thought there was a good chance I could push him off a hand if an A or K fell on the turn. I had a tight image overall, and thought my opponent was capable of folding a Q there if I made a big bet on the turn. Two, I thought there was also a chance that he'd just check to me on the turn, as some of these guys were showing flop aggression, but would slow down a bit if they didn't take the pot down on the flop.

I had also decided that his flop bet could mean middle pair, as well as a Q.

The problem is the turn was a 4, and he bet out 400 this time. Given my read, I was almost positive I was probably drawing to 2-outs of some sort, and mucked.



[/ QUOTE ]

wow...talked yourself out of that one, huh? I think that 4 on the turn is a great card for you to push on unless you had some insane read on him.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So in hand one, after stewing for a bit, I made the worst move possible and decided to call and see the turn. I decided on that move for two reasons, one, I thought there was a good chance I could push him off a hand if an A or K fell on the turn. I had a tight image overall, and thought my opponent was capable of folding a Q there if I made a big bet on the turn. Two, I thought there was also a chance that he'd just check to me on the turn, as some of these guys were showing flop aggression, but would slow down a bit if they didn't take the pot down on the flop.

I had also decided that his flop bet could mean middle pair, as well as a Q.

The problem is the turn was a 4, and he bet out 400 this time. Given my read, I was almost positive I was probably drawing to 2-outs of some sort, and mucked.



[/ QUOTE ]

wow...talked yourself out of that one, huh? I think that 4 on the turn is a great card for you to push on unless you had some insane read on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, pretty much. What I decided was that my initial read on the flop that he had hit top pair was probably correct, and that I never should have seen the turn in the first place, and, ah crap, f-it, I'm folding.

I probably did outthink myself. But at the same time, I try to avoid situations where if I get my money in behind, I'm way, way behind, which I would be if he has a Q.

I agree with your other comment on hand 2, there's just not going to be folding equity there when I'm the short stack, and it's basically 1100 more to call with 2100 in the pot already. Anyone with 2 overcards to my 3's probably would be correct to call, let alone a hand like KQ.

I did say I was rusty. /images/graemlins/blush.gif