a couple of non-standard hands

[SossMan]

I played in a deep stack home game tourney that has the same blind/chip structure as the WSOP (10k starting stack) but with shorter levels (20 min). There are only 25 players and they pay the top 4 50/25/15/10%. Buy in is $200+beer.

Players are decent, but are trying to play better, so their big mistake now is playing too tight post flop in a raised pot. This allowed me to make some more speculative preflop plays. Here are a couple of hands that I thought were non-standard...both were from round 1:

blinds 25/50 stackw were ~10k.

Hand 1:
Folded to CO who open raises to 3x.
I make it 8x on the button w/ K9s.



Hand 2:
I limp UTG w/ J /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif.
MP calls
CO calls
Button calls
SB folds
BB checks.

pot = 275.

Flop : 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks. I bet 200. MP calls. CO calls. others fold.

Turn: pot = 875 3 handed.
4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, MP bets 400, CO folds, I call.

River: pot = 1675 heads up
3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet 1200.

thoughts?

[Lurshy]

In hand 2, what do you plan to do if he comes over-the-top in a big way? He could easily be on a flush as well. I think I may have check/called again here, hoping he bluffs at the pot again, or had two pair, or str8. If he had a big flush, he is likely to only make a 1/2 to pot sized bet, hoping you come along so you don't waste more chips. And If he didn't make a hand, he may lay down against your 1200 bet on the river, so you don't gain any while risking more.

Is that analysis too weak tight?

Hand 1, I have no problem with if you think you can isolate him, and outplay him post flop. You note that they play weak post flop, so if he did come on strong (chk raised, reraised you etc.), you would need to pick your spot to give up, unless you hit the flop hard.

[MLG]

Hand 1: I like.

Hand 2: Does betting out on this flop really give you a realistic chance of winning the pot? If it does I'm all for it. If not, and you think these folks play too tight maybe check-raise the flop if there's a late position bet, otherwise, meh, I'm not getting involved.

[ZBTHorton]

#2. I totally put MP on A9 or K9 there...do you really think he's going to fold? Very few straight possibilities....no flush draw...no overcards...

[MLG]

no flush draw?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
no flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, on the turn there was not one flush draw

[SossMan]

Hand 2: Does betting out on this flop really give you a realistic chance of winning the pot? If it does I'm all for it. If not, and you think these folks play too tight maybe check-raise the flop if there's a late position bet, otherwise, meh, I'm not getting involved.



depends on if it hit them or not.

hit = top pair or better (or a flush draw)

they'd likely fold gutshots, 2nd pair, etc...they were that tight...against me, at least.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I may have check/called again here,

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't usually check call on the river w/ Jack high unless I have a really, really good read.

(i assume you were reading a different hand?)

[MLG]

I think if you bet the flop here, then you need to bet the turn. If these are tight straight-foward opponents i think you get them to fold almost any one-pair hand or worse on the turn, and they would have raised anything better on the flop. Plus, if they don't comply you have somewhere between 11 and 18 outs.

[Lurshy]

oops, when I read it, I thought u made your flush.

[ZootMurph]

For hand 1... I think this is fine for several reasons, including your read on players playing tightly. Also, many times there will be a steal from CO, and a resteal is a nice opportunity. The only problem is to not do this too often early. Find out if you can make that resteal, but don't let THEM know you can. Then you can do it again later in the tournament when it matters more.

Hand 2: You REALLY look like you have a flush on the river. Betting the flop looks like a flush draw semi-bluff, then the heart on the river finishes the bluff. Again, with your tight post flop read, I don't see how A9 could call. I really don't see how a set could fold, though, either. Especially with the deep stacks.

In any case, very solid plays with table conditions and deep stacks. Really great feeling out hands for later in the tournament, I think.

[swimfan]

Hand 1: alright play

Hand 2: I think I would have bet the turn. The only problem there is what is the other guy calling on that flop. If he has a piece, he may be more willing to call the turn bet. With the flop lead and turn check/call, nice play on the river.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you bet the flop here, then you need to bet the turn. If these are tight straight-foward opponents i think you get them to fold almost any one-pair hand or worse on the turn, and they would have raised anything better on the flop. Plus, if they don't comply you have somewhere between 11 and 18 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like betting into two opponents on the turn. Also, the presense of a third opponent makes it less likely that someone would take my check as a license to steal and price me out of calling w/ a big bet.

I dunno, maybe betting the turn is better, but I sure don't want to see a big reraise and have to muck.

[MLG]

the beauty of playing non-standard hands.....situations without 1 right answer.

[SossMan]

I wonder if someone w/ 1 post posted hand 1 would get treated with the same responses I did.

^(that might have been the most poorly written sentence I've ever seen)

[swimfan]

yeah, fairly hard to understand.

i don't think so, but maybe not in the way you think. if a 1 poster posted your hand 1, i think the poster would receive a smaller volume of response. additionally, the # of respected posters responding would not be as great.

[MLG]

You're probably right. Here's the thing though, you need to understand basic strategy first. Once you hit that step (which you clearly have, and everybody knows you have) you can then deviate from that strategy if the situation calls for it. If a 1 poster posted that hand I would first question whether or not they understood basic strategy, and if they did then yes I would heartily approve.