AQs Butchery

[Kasumeat]

PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Is this hand worth a 3-bet here? This is the first time I've seen UTG raise PF in ~4 orbits, so I fear he has me dominated, and just call. I probably should have raised here, right?

Flop: (12.40 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Button folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

I have 4 outs to the second-nut straight, and a backdoor nut-flush draw, and 6 overcard outs; but any heart is going to 3-flush the board, and a Q with almost certainly give somebody a straight. I choose to call here, because my holding is not very strong, and this board is too draw-friendly to scare anybody off with a raise. This pot is also big enough to be worth chasing with my draws. Is this correct?

Unfortunately, MP2 re-raises. I call.

Turn: (11.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.

The third heart and MP2s continued aggression scares me off. I figure that my J out is good for a split pot at best, and my A and Q outs may be no good at all, so I decide not to pay the big bet.

I don't like my play here much at all, how could I have improved it?

[Peter Harris]

i would:

3-bet preflop (regardless of previous orbits)
raise the flop
turn good.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[Nick Royale]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
3-bet preflop (regardless of previous orbits)


[/ QUOTE ]

Hero haven't seen UTG raise preflop in about 40 hands and suddenly raises from under the gun. That makes me wanna put him on AA-JJ, AK or AQ. Chance of being dominated are great. But you have a great hand multiway and the disadvantage of being dominated reduces significant for each player entering the pot. Call 2-cold to get multiway action here is my choice. I would have folded AQo without hesitation. I see no point in trying to get this 3-handed.

[Peter Harris]

it really depends on what UTG has been showing down. It isn't enough to say "hasn't raised". If UTG has a 90% VP$IP and goes to showdown 60% of the time, we want to see the times UTG has AK-AJ, AKs-ATs, AA-99 and showed them down.

UTG may be a tight player who hasn't had *any* hand in 40 hands. I've been there loads of times. There's no reason to assume you must be dominated unless you are sure that UTG is passive and not just getting cold cards.

I agree a cold call is fair to get it multiway, but without concrete knowledge of UTG's raising proclivities, i'll 3-bet here.

[Nick Royale]

I don't agree. When a player hasn't made one single raise preflop in 40 hands I'll assume he's passive until he proves me otherwise. Even if he has a VP$IP of 90% it doesn't change a thing, he's passive! The only possibility he's not is that he might have caught bad cards, but then I would rather address him as quite tight which doesn't change the range of hands I'll put him on very much. You can't assume the reason for the actions of an opponent is he gets bad cards, but if that would be the case I'll put him on AA-TT AK AQ AJ KQ when he raises from UTG. With these reads after 40 hands I'll delete TT AJ KQ until he proves me otherwise.

If I missed you point, please inform me.

[Peter Harris]

you've got my drift, we're just arguing from other sides of the camp! If the player is passive and doesn't show down much, though, a PF 3-bet and a flop raise may well be enough to steal the momentum off them, which is pretty valuable against a passive player. All this calling just invited UTG to keep pushing, and postflop aggression is a key part of good play.

I can see when a cold call has its merits, but in this specific example i'd still 3bet PF and raise the flop. But i guess these lines will be subject to debate when the USA wakes up. Shall we trust them to make a decision for us ? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Pete Harris

[HajiShirazu]

If you really think he has you dominated, you should fold pf.
This is kind of a crappy flop for your hand. I wouldn't raise here. Nobody with a jack will fold. You might be able to fold out a queen, but I doubt it. Plus a 3-bet is somewhat likely on this action flop. I think you'd like to see the turn as cheaply as possible here.
I guess you can fold the turn but it's close. The three non heart jacks are usually going to be good and an ace/queen are going to be good at least some of the time and you would only need 3.5 outs on average to call here.

[Nick Royale]

Yeah, let's leave this to the americans! But what you're saying is intressting and the more I read your second post the more I like it! I would say the "40 hands without a raise"-read is not worth very much, as you say I have to know what hands he have gotten. But if I have a read on UTG as passive I would do my coldcall, if I'm not confident I'll go with your line.

Liked your line on the other streets btw.

[Nick Royale]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
If you really think he has you dominated, you should fold pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't be confident you're dominated and this is a great multiwayhand, so why not call and get it a multiwaypot. Say you believe you're dominated 50% of the time in this pot, the multiway quality of this hand makes up for a call.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

I think you played this fine on all streets. There is a good chance you are dominated preflop, but the combination of the chance you are not dominated (KK, JJ, another AQ) with the solid drawing potential of this hand warrants you seeing the flop. Coldcalling preflop is better than 3-betting (you are more likely to generate a multiway pot).

Flop and turn is standard - call the flop, fold the turn if a non-Jack heart comes. Well played on all streets.