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View Full Version : too agressive? checked twice to me..


Cartridge
11-28-2004, 05:59 AM
Is this a bad move vs a big stack? This is a $10 sng, and he was playing a bit on the loose side, blinds were going up in 1min if that means anything

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed)

SB (t4075)
BB (t1385)
UTG (t2305)
Hero (t1355)
Button (t880)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t450</font>, Button folds, SB calls t375, BB folds.

Flop: (t1050) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t1050) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t905 (All-In)</font>, SB calls t905.

River: (t2860) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2860

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB has 8s 8h (full house, fours full of eights).
Hero has Qc Ac (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: SB wins t2860. </font>

tigerite
11-28-2004, 06:02 AM
I guarantee this will be a standard response, but.. push preflop!

Myst
11-28-2004, 07:22 AM
Less than ~10 BB. push preflop.

Guy F
11-28-2004, 01:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee this will be a standard response, but.. push preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

There probably won't be a tremendous amount of disagreement with this, but I think it misses the original question and is something others (like me, for example :-) struggle with in ring games as well as tourneys.

Rephrasing the question: What clues are available to help differentiate someone who checks twice because they're afraid (and is therefore someone you can attack) from someone who checks to trap you?

My own approach is to do something - anything - to get information as early as I can. If the stack size vs. blinds wasn't an issue (which it is here), I make a defensive bet on the flop and see what the other guy does. Position is my best friend here. Chances are it scares him too, but if he flat calls I shut down. He's either trapping, or is genuinely unsure whether his hand is best and wants to see another card. Like me he may have only high cards or fears a bigger boat (I could easily have a bigger pair than his). Since I have position, I can check behind on the turn to see if the river fills me up. If he bets at me anywhere after the flop, though, I'm gone.

In this specific situation I push on the flop without hesitation and hope to hell he doesn't have a pair or at least respects the possibility that I have a bigger pair. My stack is so small there's no point in folding and if he doesn't have a pair I don't want him seeing more cards.

tigerite
11-28-2004, 01:23 PM
Absolutely, I agree. If somehow I got to this position with 450 of my 1300 stack in the pot - over 30% - I'd push any flop, sort of like a delayed stop and go.

Desdia72
11-28-2004, 01:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Is this a bad move vs a big stack? This is a $10 sng, and he was playing a bit on the loose side, blinds were going up in 1min if that means anything

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed)

SB (t4075)
BB (t1385)
UTG (t2305)
Hero (t1355)
Button (t880)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t450</font>, Button folds, SB calls t375, BB folds.

Flop: (t1050) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t1050) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t905 (All-In)</font>, SB calls t905.

River: (t2860) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2860

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB has 8s 8h (full house, fours full of eights).
Hero has Qc Ac (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: SB wins t2860. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

i would've pushed preflop with this hand against a player like this, even if i only accomplished stealing the blinds. either that or all-in on the flop. if he has a pocket pair lower than a Queen and calls, you can still improve on the turn and river. definite push preflop for me. if you're a good postflop player, you don't have enough chips to manuever or bluff with when you miss after raising.

Paul2432
11-28-2004, 01:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Rephrasing the question: What clues are available to help differentiate someone who checks twice because they're afraid (and is therefore someone you can attack) from someone who checks to trap you?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, good hands occurr less often than bad hands, so most of the time two checks means a bad hand.

Also consider the texture of the board, stack size, and previous action.

How dangerous is a free card likely to be to your opponent? If a free card is dangerous, a check is more likely to be a bad hand.

Who was the aggressor in the earlier rounds? Many players check to the raiser no matter what they hold. If you raised and the BB called, a check is less likely to be a bad hand than if UTG raised and you called on the button and then UTG checks the flop and turn.

Paul

MrMon
11-28-2004, 03:00 PM
I think that this is a situation where no matter how you play it, you just are going to lose, because of this key statement: [ QUOTE ]
he was playing a bit on the loose side

[/ QUOTE ] It's all just a question of how much you are going to lose.

That said, let's see what your options were. First off, this is UB, not Party, so the game works differently. Even though blinds are about to go up, they go up much slower than Party. Less of a slam-bang power game and more one of finesse. For this reason, I disagree with the auto-push when under 10x BB. I personally like your 3x bet because it gives you room to manuever.

After your opponent calls, you've got position, so that's to your advantage. The flop comes and not only do you miss, the flop is extremely dangerous. Flops like this are why stop and go is sometimes superior to a push. In case of emergency, you can hit the brakes.

Here, you lose to any pocket pair, AK or the unlikely A4 if your loose opponent is playing any ace. You opponent called a pretty strong raise, that's a warning sign. He checks, trap or sign of desperation? If you bet and he calls, it's a pretty good sign you are beaten. And there's a real chance of that. You currently have enough chips to recover, so check or minimal bet. If he doesn't fold, check it all the way, or fold to any substantial bet. You aren't going to force out any winning hand with a push, and no losing hand will call.

I am still learning to do this, but the best players learn when to lay down beaten hands, even ones that started strong. (I just lost top pair to pocket aces. All the signs were there, I just didn't pay attention.) The pros use all available info and play appropriately. We all need to learn to do the same.

Cartridge
11-28-2004, 05:36 PM
I gotta admit pushing preflop with these stacks/blinds on UB is not something I do.. if I fold on the flop I believe I'd still have alot more opportunities before my stack dwindled to 3x the bb. I'll think about this more, thanks for the reply's.

Helios
11-28-2004, 06:09 PM
To all the preflop push people is it wrong if I were to say bet 800 preflop and the raise the rest no matter what the flop. I am just starting out at SnGs but this stratagy seems more effective than just pushing.

Because for one the people I play with seem to more easily call all ins than simply large bets (maybe cause the added incentive of being able to sit back and getting another player out) Also if you bet no matter what the flop is you may be able to push him out of the pot.

Should I push preflop or is my statagy good?

tigerite
11-28-2004, 08:31 PM
The "stop and go" really only works if you're first to act on the flop, and generally when you're calling a raise, so basically from the button or in the blinds. Although you CAN do it from UTG, if you are called by the SB or BB and they check or come out betting, you're in a bit of a quandary. So, no, here I'd push all-in.

texasrattlers
11-28-2004, 09:35 PM
I do not think your strategy will work. An 800 bet leaves you with 550, so in effect you are pot and stack committed. It should come as no surprise to your opponent that you push your remaining 550 on the flop. It should not represent that you hit the flop to a decent player. Maybe to a $10 SNG player, but I doubt it.

Helios
11-28-2004, 10:34 PM
ok thanks I guess Ill just push from now on.

captZEEbo1
11-28-2004, 11:16 PM
I think this is a pretty bad push. You likely have the best hand right here, and as long as he's checking the crap out of this hand, just chk it down. The thing with the push is, you are only getting called if you are behind.

But yeah, probably allin this hand preflop and lose to a coinflip (or allin this hand on the flop). Although it's really weird he checked the turn to you, I'm not gonna lie.

Jason Strasser
11-29-2004, 05:57 AM
Helios,

You are on to something, don't listen to anyone on here when you feel you have a good idea. I have seen some of the most rediculous folds in every level of SNG play. I really do think there is some value to raising a hand like this to 800 and committing the rest of the stack regardless of the action. First of all, if you have T1300 or whatever, and bet 800 (I would suggest something even more dramatic like 1000), you often appear to opponents as having a hand that wants a call. And sometimes, on rare occasions, opponents will actually call the pfr and fold on the flop. It's obscene, but it can happen. I'm not sure how these certain people think when they do fold, but I do know that it happens.

I think against a good player, this type of play is meaningless--just shove preflop. But I've been experimenting in the 215s when I declare a person in my mind to be suspicious/bad with plays like this. I've had very good success it seems with just outright stealing blinds (it is a very odd raise to handle), and I have actually gotten people to fold on the flop once or twice. It can also throw off some of the regulars. I swear they fold more often when I do this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

So please, experiment, report, etc. Don't let someone take this idea and shut it down. When I come up with more conclusive thoughts about this type of issue I'll post them.

-Jason

tigerite
11-29-2004, 06:46 AM
Oh, I definitely agree it can work, but if one of the blinds calls you then your position is going to be bad on the flop, that's all.