Now THIS is a bad fold

[zuluking]

SB makes a boo-boo.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $1.
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: (2 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB has Ad 2c (full house, fives full of queens).
Hero has Kd Js (full house, fives full of queens).
MP1 has 3s 6h (full house, fives full of queens).
Outcome: MP1 wins 3.66 BB. BB wins 3.66 BB. Hero wins 3.66 BB. </font>

[Yobz]

I think SB played it correctly, anyone agree with me?

[Nick Royale]

Why risk 2BB with that river action? To get 0,5BB, I don't think so /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[zuluking]

I think its obvious that a steal attempt was made by me and the other player. Heck, I even made 16 cents on the deal! The way my night has been going, I'll take it.

[Hack]

Why'd you call with KJo UTG? I usually limp with AJo in early position but Isn't KJo UTG a different story?

[Nick C]

The fold only cost SB one small bet. Probably a weak queen wouldn't get checked through twice, but he has to risk 2 BB and maybe 4 BB to find out. Plus, someone could have been slowplaying a 5.

[zuluking]

Limping with KJo in a loose LL Party Poker game is not a problem. Page 82, SSHE.

[DeuceKicker]

I agree with yobz. The pot is microscopic. Best case scenario; SB would be calling 2BB to win 1/4 of an 8BB pot. After the rake he's actually losing money on the call.

Worst case scenario; SB calls 2BB only to have to call 2 more when it comes back to him capped. Now he's pretty sure someone was slowplaying a hand. He has called 4BB into a 2BB pot when he's playing the board and at best splitting it four ways.

I think hero's raise on the river was lousy. He's hoping to lose one or two players, splitting their share of the pot (which amounts to 1 or 2 BB) but risks getting 3bet by someone who was slowplaying a Q or 5. While this is unlikely, I don't think the risk is worth it.

[Entity]

Hey Zulu,

I don't like your preflop call or your river raise.

Take that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping with KJo in a loose LL Party Poker game is not a problem. Page 82, SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]
You want me to give you the page # where it discusses a "tight" game being 3-6 players to the flop, and a loose game being 6-10 players to the flop?

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Why'd you call with KJo UTG? I usually limp with AJo in early position but Isn't KJo UTG a different story?

[/ QUOTE ]
I raise AJo and fold KJo.

I don't like calling with KJo UTG but I'm a position whore. It's probably fractionally -EV.

Rob

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Zulu,

I don't like your preflop call or your river raise.

Take that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Table running loose all night. So there! But the way I'm getting my arse handed to me tonight by the fish, maybe you're right.

[ricdaman]

I disagree.

Yes it's true the pot is small. BUT... I think the fold here is a sign of a much larger problem. If SB is willing to fold his hand here, he's probably folding much larger pots too.

One of the major flaws of micro-limit and small-limit players is that they fold too often on the river. Unfortuanetly folding is suggested in these twoplustwo forums too, and it's sad. Some people say you can't bluff this game, but I see it happen all the time. You wouldn't believe the number of times people have folded the best hand on the river to a busted flush-draw who kept on betting.

Let me give you some examples besides the one in this post:

I have QJs, and raise UTG. I get two callers: MP and Button.

Flop comes 9JQ, 2 spades.
I bet, MP and Button call.
Turn comes K, no spade.
I bet, MP calls, Button raises. --- Button has a T, right?
I call, MP calls.
River 4, no spade.
I check, MP checks. Button bets, I call and MP calls.

I show QJ, MP shows J9, and Button shows 84s (spades).
What would have happened if I had folded? I would have lost a 14 BB pot.

Another hand, this time a bluff:

I have KTs
Flop comes Q94, 2 my suite.
I bet, get 5 callers.
Turn comes Q (not my suite).
I bet again, and get 3 callers
River comes 8 (not my suite).
I bet again, everybody folds.

With all that calling, what do you bet somebody had AT LEAST A high (probably 2 pair), who folded?

My point is... stop folding your hands so often. You are costing yourselves a lot of money. If there are 10 BB in the pot, and it only costs you 1 more to call, and you think you may be right 1/10 times... CALL!!!!

[Hack]

I thought AJo shouldn't be raised UTG because you're the first one in and if it's re-raised you're out of position for every hand after that.

What do you do if it's re-raised and you call it and an ace flops. If you bet you'll probably be raised.

AJs, on the other hand, is a different story.

[Nick Royale]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
I disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't mean it's worth a call?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
If there are 10 BB in the pot, and it only costs you 1 more to call, and you think you may be right 1/10 times... CALL!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right! But I think most players at low limit do the opposit, call all the way with to many hands. And in the second hand you can't expect ace high to call. Maybe if he's closing the action, but still it's not often a profitable call to make.

In the first hand you have odds to draw for your full house so folding would be miserable, you could also be ahead. For only one more bet on the river it's an easy call for most players.

[ricdaman]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right! But I think most players at low limit do the opposit, call all the way with to many hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, which is why I make so much money at low limits. They always call at the wrong times, and fold at the right times!

[ QUOTE ]
In the first hand ... For only one more bet on the river it's an easy call for most players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would not believe the number of players who fold here thinking they have lost to a T.

[Nick Royale]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
You would not believe the number of players who fold here thinking they have lost to a T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you've got a point there. But still, often when low-limit players fold at the river it's because they didn't make their inside straight or whatever they were hoping for. In your second example most LL-players call down gladly with bottom pair or maybe an underpair in their pockets /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought AJo shouldn't be raised UTG because you're the first one in and if it's re-raised you're out of position for every hand after that.

[/ QUOTE ]
The difference between limping and raising with AJo UTG, it seems, is very small. Even Ed says to just pick one and stick with it; I, like many (but not all) 2+2ers, have decided that I like raising best.

I don't always raise AJo UTG, but it's my default play. Sometimes I limp, sometimes I fold.

Rob

[DeathDonkey]

I always raise AJo to keep my PFR over 10. And I decided a little while ago to always fold KJo and QJo in EP as they just kill me. Apparently I should read SSH so I could figure this out without the need for experimentation. Now lets talk about KQo that hand kills me too but I'm still raising it in EP. That may be my biggest trouble hand.

-DeathDonkey

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes it's true the pot is small. BUT... I think the fold here is a sign of a much larger problem. If SB is willing to fold his hand here, he's probably folding much larger pots too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think the two have anything to do with each other. Pot size is a very important factor in your decision to raise/call/fold. We're analyzing SB's play as if we were playing the hand (and assuming 'we' are halfway decent players). Therefore I don't think we can at all say if you'd fold a tiny pot for two bets when you're playing the board, you'd also fold large pots when you have a made hand.

[ QUOTE ]
One of the major flaws of micro-limit and small-limit players is that they fold too often on the river. Unfortuanetly folding is suggested in these twoplustwo forums too, and it's sad. Some people say you can't bluff this game, but I see it happen all the time. You wouldn't believe the number of times people have folded the best hand on the river to a busted flush-draw who kept on betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure this is often true (though I think the typical party player has the opposite problem--playing too many hands, and taking them too far.)

[ QUOTE ]
Let me give you some examples besides the one in this post:

I have QJs, and raise UTG. I get two callers: MP and Button.

Flop comes 9JQ, 2 spades.
I bet, MP and Button call.
Turn comes K, no spade.
I bet, MP calls, Button raises. --- Button has a T, right?
I call, MP calls.
River 4, no spade.
I check, MP checks. Button bets, I call and MP calls.

I show QJ, MP shows J9, and Button shows 84s (spades).
What would have happened if I had folded? I would have lost a 14 BB pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly certain that most people who post here would have called this hand down. Very few would fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Another hand, this time a bluff:
I have KTs
Flop comes Q94, 2 my suite.
I bet, get 5 callers.
Turn comes Q (not my suite).
I bet again, and get 3 callers
River comes 8 (not my suite).
I bet again, everybody folds.

With all that calling, what do you bet somebody had AT LEAST A high (probably 2 pair), who folded?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess all I can say is, well played. This hand, however, has nothing to do with the OP's hand. You can't use these examples to say calling two cold when you're playing the board in a pot that is 2BB is a good move. The reason the call in the first hand is a good one is because of the risk/reward ratio. In the OP's hand you have a substantial risk, and almost no reward. (In fact, if my quick count was correct, the reward is to actually lose money once the rake is taken out. The OP made a whopping .08BB only because someone did fold, otherwise he would have suffered a net loss on the hand.)

[ QUOTE ]
My point is... stop folding your hands so often. You are costing yourselves a lot of money. If there are 10 BB in the pot, and it only costs you 1 more to call, and you think you may be right 1/10 times... CALL!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is fine advice in general, but the OP posted a specific hand where I think folding was the most profitable play.

[Yobz]

[ QUOTE ]
I always raise AJo to keep my PFR over 10. And I decided a little while ago to always fold KJo and QJo in EP as they just kill me. Apparently I should read SSH so I could figure this out without the need for experimentation. Now lets talk about KQo that hand kills me too but I'm still raising it in EP. That may be my biggest trouble hand.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed recommends just plain 'ol calling that from UTG and EP in general.
I'm happy to see people agree with me here, that pot aint worth the fight /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always raise AJo to keep my PFR over 10. And I decided a little while ago to always fold KJo and QJo in EP as they just kill me. Apparently I should read SSH so I could figure this out without the need for experimentation. Now lets talk about KQo that hand kills me too but I'm still raising it in EP. That may be my biggest trouble hand.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed recommends just plain 'ol calling that from UTG and EP in general.
I'm happy to see people agree with me here, that pot aint worth the fight /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
There's a footnote that says debating raising KQo and AJo in EP vs. calling with KQo and AJo in EP is basically worthless, as the difference is marginal between the two. I believe Ed's suggestion is "just pick one and stick with it."

I've picked raising. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[btspider]

I fold KJo UTG PF unless I was sitting at a stellar table (live 2/4 hand, etc)..

SB fold is fine. there was a SS post about a similar hand and everyone said the fold is fine.

[cold_cash]

If I'm the SB why would I want to pay 3 or 4 bets just to have someone show me a Queen or a 5?

Plus, even if nobody has one of those hands I'm risking those 3 bets to win 11 bets chopped up 4 ways.

So I'm risking 3 bets (at least) to at best win 3.5, and at worst lose all 3? I think I'd pass.