View Full Version : A situation I'm unsure about PP $30
SmileyEH
11-27-2004, 09:35 AM
Not sure whether I should check behind fearing a check raise or value bet/protect my hand. I am pretty sure I am good here but not positive. This is the first hand.
Preflop is ok though?
***** Hand History for Game 1228821927 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:7475482 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Saturday, November 27, 08:28:42 EDT 2004
Table Table 11067 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: bollieman ( $800 )
Seat 4: Jennison ( $800 )
Seat 5: bsmoney62 ( $800 )
Seat 6: dallas8580 ( $800 )
Seat 7: gingaman ( $800 )
Seat 8: Poker_Noob ( $800 )
Seat 9: Woland1 ( $800 )
Seat 2: boro999 ( $800 )
Seat 1: Inspogd ( $800 )
Seat 10: RADMAN309 ( $800 )
Trny:7475482 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Woland1 [ Ad 8d ]
>You have options at Table 11560 Table!.
boro999 calls [15].
bollieman folds.
Jennison raises [30].
bsmoney62 folds.
dallas8580 folds.
gingaman folds.
Poker_Noob folds.
Woland1 calls [30].
RADMAN309 folds.
Inspogd calls [15].
boro999 calls [15].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 6s, 8s ]
Inspogd checks.
boro999 bets [15].
Jennison calls [15].
Woland1 raises [125].
Inspogd folds.
boro999 calls [110].
Jennison folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
boro999 checks.
-SmileyEH
Virox
11-27-2004, 04:53 PM
The min bet and the following call is screaming "DRAW!" to me so I would value bet the turn.
The flop raise could probably be a little lower and still push out people with overcards. Then it won't cost you that much to increase the bet on the turn.
adanthar
11-27-2004, 05:19 PM
Fold preflop. Having called, bet this turn and fold to a CR because he made his straight.
Cornbread Maxwell
11-27-2004, 05:20 PM
First of all, I fold A8d preflop to a raise (or even a call) nearly every time here.
Second of all, you MUST bet the turn here, at least 300 chips or even all in. The way you have played this hand makes it disgusting to give the guy a free card, so you must commit yourself to the pot on the turn and hope he misses his draw or hasnt slowplayed.
Cornbread Maxwell
11-27-2004, 05:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. Having called, bet this turn and fold to a CR because he made his straight.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK the first part is correct, you should fold preflop. Secondly, if you bet the turn you cannot fold to a raise IMO. He's not always going to have 54o every time he raises on the turn. Plus if you bet 200 and fold to a raise you're basically crippling yourself when the guy could easily be semi bluffing with a flush draw.
SmileyEH
11-27-2004, 05:56 PM
Alot of you are saying fold preflop....but it was a min raise and the pot will be multiway and I have the button. What range of hands would you call with?
-SmileyEH
Paragon
11-27-2004, 06:16 PM
I might call with medium pocket pairs in this case, not really sure. These are exactly the type of hands I avoid for the reason you posted this thread: scary marginal situations. I'd really want to enter this hand with a fat aggressive raise of about 100+ if I had a strong pocket pair or AK, otherwise I'd stay out. I mean, your reasoning for playing A8s in this multi way pot is for flush value, yet you got trapped into a weak TP situation, and it's just dangerous to get involved this early in the sng.
Anyway.. if I were in this hand post flop I think I'd give up one free card, hoping for non-flush or non-straight card. I don't have the guts to push people around on the flop with that A8s here because the pre flop raise was so weak and you have basically zero information on what the villain is holding. That might seem weak/tight but that's merely because I stay out of these situations in the first place. My goal would be to keep the pot small, maybe a small value bet on the turn, and then safely check behind on the river if at all possible.
Fold Ad8d preflop. I'd call with any pair (for set value), and reraise with AA-JJ, AK. I even fold AQ, KQ here. Its just way too early to be risking chips.
This is a tough spot. I bet about 250 and fold to a reraise all in. You can't give him a free card, and yet, you can safely get away from this hand. If you want to be agressive, push all in.
Thats why you avoid these situations in the first place by folding preflop!!!!
adanthar
11-27-2004, 08:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
OK the first part is correct, you should fold preflop. Secondly, if you bet the turn you cannot fold to a raise IMO. He's not always going to have 54o every time he raises on the turn. Plus if you bet 200 and fold to a raise you're basically crippling yourself when the guy could easily be semi bluffing with a flush draw.
[/ QUOTE ]
You think that at the $30 level, a guy who limped UTG, called a minimum raise, minbet the flop and called a huge raise is going to CR *another* huge raise all in with a flush draw?
Please move up to the $50 level and play me.
BTW, he's much more likely to have 54 soooooted than 54o and he may very well only have a flush draw - but he's not CR'ing all in with it. When I get CR'd by a fishy calling station on this board, he sure as hell can beat TPTK.
ChrisV
11-27-2004, 09:07 PM
Calling range: Any pair JJ and less, AQ, AK.
You can see the problem with calling A8s in this hand. Most of the time you flop a pair or a flush draw, rather than a flush or two pair, and those hands are hell to play properly. Then when you do make your flush, you hardly ever bust anyone.
In a MTT I like the call, but in an SNG the value of doubling up early is much reduced.
Cornbread Maxwell
11-28-2004, 06:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK the first part is correct, you should fold preflop. Secondly, if you bet the turn you cannot fold to a raise IMO. He's not always going to have 54o every time he raises on the turn. Plus if you bet 200 and fold to a raise you're basically crippling yourself when the guy could easily be semi bluffing with a flush draw.
[/ QUOTE ]
You think that at the $30 level, a guy who limped UTG, called a minimum raise, minbet the flop and called a huge raise is going to CR *another* huge raise all in with a flush draw?
Please move up to the $50 level and play me.
BTW, he's much more likely to have 54 soooooted than 54o and he may very well only have a flush draw - but he's not CR'ing all in with it. When I get CR'd by a fishy calling station on this board, he sure as hell can beat TPTK.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not that it matters a ton, but I play $200 sit and go's regularly, and I can confidently say that the vast majority of $30 players at Party Poker are atrocious nearly without exception.
The problem with having 800 in chips is that you can't play a big hand without getting pot commmitted easily. After putting in almost 200 chips total with his A8 suited preflop and on the flop, he's getting dangerously close to becoming pot committed (and probably has the best hand, based on how his opponent played so far).
If I were in this player's situation, I'd assume it is highly likely my opponent is on a draw rather than a set or overpair on the flop, and bet big unless the turn is a scare card (flush card perhaps).
Yes, the turn card COULD give his opponent a straight, but this isn't Pot Limit Omaha where your opponent usually is drawing for the nuts, this is low limit NL hold em where your opponent could easily be holding on to a flush draw, a low pocket pair, or even overcards (!).
If you are holding A8d and play the hand aggressively on the flop, you MUST continue to be aggressive when a card like this falls on the turn, and be willing to get all of your chips in once you bet the turn. You have to understand how disgusting it is to put in a $150 bet on the flop and a $250 bet on the turn, then fold to a re-raise. You lose half your stack and your opponent might not even have you beat every time.
Anyways, I'd never be in this hand to begin with because I almost never call raises with A8 suited in sit and go's, but in a $30 NL sit and go versus the caliber of players I normally see in them, it would be very hard for me to release top pair on the turn in his situation.
Hope to see you in the $200's soon, adanthar!
tigerite
11-28-2004, 08:41 AM
You're not wrong about the $30s. I wouldn't at all be surprised if this guy had a flush draw. The fishy play is terrible. I play them regularly at the moment so I'm used to it, heh..
adanthar
11-28-2004, 01:08 PM
Oh, yeah, there's no question you must bet the turn. There's also no question you're gonna be really disgusted if you have to fold there (again, why I don't play this hand; if the turn is a K and you get checkraised, well...)
But so far, you're up against a pure calling station who's done nothing except call on a draw heavy board. He *might* be a little bit better and have a set or stupidly slowplayed aces (which would also checkraise), but it takes a very special breed of idiot to call off half his stack on a flopped draw during L1 and then checkraise all in on the turn for the other half. There's a 99.9% chance his minbet is a draw or weak TP (the other .1% is a set) and roughly a 95% chance he's the far less special brand of idiot who CR's the nuts.
The difference could very well be the limits we play. The 200's have bad players, but, just like Party 15/30, they're a different, LAGgy breed of bad from 3/6 or $30. At the $50 and $30 level, if you get CR'd on the turn (and it's always a minimum raise for some reason) you can fold this hand without a second thought.
IMO, of course, but given the way this guy has played so far I think my read is good.
I'll see you at the $200's in a thousand or so multitabled 50's and 100's /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Cornbread Maxwell
11-28-2004, 02:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, yeah, there's no question you must bet the turn. There's also no question you're gonna be really disgusted if you have to fold there (again, why I don't play this hand; if the turn is a K and you get checkraised, well...)
But so far, you're up against a pure calling station who's done nothing except call on a draw heavy board. He *might* be a little bit better and have a set or stupidly slowplayed aces (which would also checkraise), but it takes a very special breed of idiot to call off half his stack on a flopped draw during L1 and then checkraise all in on the turn for the other half. There's a 99.9% chance his minbet is a draw or weak TP (the other .1% is a set) and roughly a 95% chance he's the far less special brand of idiot who CR's the nuts.
The difference could very well be the limits we play. The 200's have bad players, but, just like Party 15/30, they're a different, LAGgy breed of bad from 3/6 or $30. At the $50 and $30 level, if you get CR'd on the turn (and it's always a minimum raise for some reason) you can fold this hand without a second thought.
IMO, of course, but given the way this guy has played so far I think my read is good.
I'll see you at the $200's in a thousand or so multitabled 50's and 100's /images/graemlins/smile.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with the analysis. Again, it comes down to how many chips you start with. Anyone who plays Party sit and go's well, especially the ones where you start out with 800 chips, understands that you have to be VERY careful about getting pot committed early on with a marginal hand.
In a $50 S&G and up, where you start out with 1000 chips, it would be far easier to get away from this hand, given that you have more chips, and are against smarter players, who won't do crazy things [as frequently] with top pair weak kicker, or a flush draw, or even a bluff.
Again, the way this hand was played is DISGUSTING, as we both can agree on, simply due to our super tight S&G styles at Party, but if I had played it that way on the flop and turn, I wouldn't be able to get away from it to a raise in a $30 S&G, even though I might feel I was statistically probable to be an underdog after I called the raise.
Good luck and I hope you're getting rakeback on those $50 and $100 S&G's!
SmileyEH
11-28-2004, 05:59 PM
Thanks for all the replies. He folded to a 2/3rd pot bet.
-SmileyEH
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