A Simple Observation & A Simple Question

[Rooster71]

Gay marriage and other homosexual issues seem to be a popular point of discussion here lately. For numerous reasons, I try to understand both sides of most issues. Note: I said "understand", which has nothing to do with agreeing. The words "understand" and "agree" are two unrelated words with totally separate meanings.

My observation: Every discussion involving gay issues ends up in the the typical controversy: "Gays are born gay" vs. "gays choose to be gay". A recurring view from people who are against gay marriage is "why do gays have to flaunt their sexuality?" or "Why do they throw it up in our face?" Pro-gay marriage people typically respond by saying that gays shouldn't have to hide their sexuality and that same sex marriages are a basic civil right. But whatever is said, the situation almost always reverts back to the "born gay" vs. "choose to be gay" controversy.

My Question: Assuming that gay people are born that way, why do so many seem to exhibit the classic gay mannerisms (such as talking with a lisp) that allow people to immediately identify them as a homosexual? It is my belief that this behavior is what people are referring to when they say "why do they have to throw it in our face?" Is there anyone that can provide any shred of evidence that the stereotypical gay mannerisms are not a learned behavior?

Yes I know that there are a great number of homosexuals who don't act this way, that's not my point. My point is that I believe a minority of homosexuals (the ones who constantly exhibit gay mannerisms) are the reason that so many people think that being gay is a learned behavior. Any ideas?

[wacki]

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Is there anyone that can provide any shred of evidence that the stereotypical gay mannerisms are not a learned behavior?

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Good luck. This is my field. I analyze genetics for a living. If you are going to find real scientific proof of innate homosexual behavior you will find it here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi


Again, good luck. As far as I know, there is no funds for doing this kind of research. We have spent billions of dollars sequencing the human genome. That is sequencing one copy of the human genome. In order to analyze and find similarities between gay people you are going to have to have hundreds of homosexuals genetic code analyzed and compared to hundreds of heterosexuals. Without any clues into the mechanisms of how homosexuality works in the brain, brute force analysis is the only method that will work. In otherwords, I would be shocked if there was any real scientific proof. I will also be shocked if any comes out anytime soon.

If you ask me, yes, I do think genetics plays a very large role in homosexuality. My reasoning comes from an understanding of how genetics affects behavior in organisms and not any definitive research on homosexuality. However, the brain contiually adapts and can easily be shaped long after birth so I can not discount nurture and it's effects on sexuality.

[Rooster71]

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Is there anyone that can provide any shred of evidence that the stereotypical gay mannerisms are not a learned behavior?

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Good luck. This is my field. I analyze genetics for a living. If you are going to find real scientific proof of innate homosexual behavior you will find it here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi


Again, good luck. As far as I know, there is no funds for doing this kind of research. We have spent billions of dollars sequencing the human genome. That is sequencing one copy of the human genome. In order to analyze and find similarities between gay people you are going to have to have hundreds of homosexuals genetic code analyzed and compared to hundreds of heterosexuals. Without any clues into the mechanisms of how homosexuality works in the brain, brute force analysis is the only method that will work. In otherwords, I would be shocked if there was any real scientific proof. I will also be shocked if any comes out anytime soon.

If you ask me, yes, I do think genetics plays a very large role in homosexuality. My reasoning comes from an understanding of how genetics affects behavior in organisms and not any definitive research on homosexuality. However, the brain contiually adapts and can easily be shaped long after birth so I can not discount nurture and it's effects on sexuality.

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Thanks for the insightful (and fast) response. I share your belief that it has to do with genetics to some extent. But I am trying to get at something a little different.

Here is an example of what I am trying to learn - Let's say Bob is born gay. When Bob gets to be in his late teens, he starts talking with a lisp and exhibiting the stereotypical gay mannerisms. I am not concerned with the correlation between genetics and being attracted to the same sex. I am wanting to know (assuming that genetics does play a role) "why do some gays exhibit mannerisms that allow virtually anyone to immediately identify them as being gay?, Does genetics have anything to do with this?"

[YourFoxyGrandma]

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Does genetics have anything to do with this?"

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Probably. But it's my guess that genetics effect to a similar extent a super-manly, tough guy heterosexuals' behavior.

[arabie]

The only evidence i can give you is that if you go all around the world to different countries, meeting different gays (who have not interacted with the cultures of the other countries) will still possess the same common gay qualities that you describe. Without referring to a conspiracy theory, i think it is fair to assume that they all possess some biologically similar trait. The lisp, and other "gay" mannerisms are also clearly very feminin type acts. Also, a lot of lesbians look a lot a men and have very manly characteristics. Does this not hint to a different sexual ballance? Or am i crazy for thinking that they are not an underground group who tries to act the same so people hate and abuse them more?

[chabibi]

it seems to me like it may be hormonal imbalance ie. men that are feminen and women that are masculin but if thats the case couldnt it be cured with treatment

i am not trying to say that homosexuality is a defect or that even if it is it should be cured its just an observation

[tolbiny]

Except that all these traits ar sterotypes. Of my admittedly small sample size of three gay roomates, two openly bi, and a homosexual friend, only one of them exhibits a stereotype in anyway (he generally speaks softer than the average male). Basing you assumptions on the "Queer Eye" cast or other prominant homosexual personalities is, well ignorant as all hell. If you have studies that show Lisps/effeminate behaviors in men/overly masculine behaviors in women are much haigher amoung homosexuals then you may have a basis for your argument. Without it I am sticking to my small sample size of homosexual friends.

[MelchyBeau]

I seriously doubt that is true, if it was then women in menopause would have a tendency to become lesbians.

If we are thinking of genetics we must also remember the people who have no sexual desire at all. They do exist.

As for the lisp and such, it might be that they are playing our cultures stereotype. That does tend to happen. If you tell someone that they are ditzy constantly, it is a strong possibility they start acting thier roll that the stereotype set out by society gives them.


I also know quite a few gay and lesbian people who don't fit the stereotype of having a lisp or being super butch. Then again i know a few metrosexuals and tomboys as well.

Melch

[nothumb]

Hi Rooster

First, I think the 'flaunting' argument is silly and beside the point. Because heterosexuals 'flaunt' their behavior all the time. I'll say again, gays are usually less sexually expressive in public than heteros because of the stigma. Obviously there are the extremely flamboyant exceptions.

But, again, I think these exceptions deceive you. There are also a lot of gays that do not exhibit them, but you'd never know they were gay, so you don't take them into consideration.

As far as genetics vs. learned behavior, both can play a role, just as they do with girls and boys, etc. We know that there are hormonal and physical differences between genders, which contribute to some behaviors, but we also know that many typically 'girly' behaviors are learned in childhood, based on how girls are treated. So society reinforces genetics. I see no reason to believe this doesn't happen to gays as well, although perhaps not from so early an age.

I have to leave for work so I can't give a more in depth response.

NT

[Rooster71]

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Basing you assumptions on the "Queer Eye" cast or other prominant homosexual personalities is, well ignorant as all hell.

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This was an intelligent thread until your post. First of all, I assume you can read or you wouldn't be making this post (maybe you are dictating, I don't know). Assuming you can read, I suggest you re-read my post. After doing so, please tell me 1) what assumptions are made? and 2) what have I based anything on? After reading the post, maybe you can see the following statement:

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Yes I know that there are a great number of homosexuals who don't act this way, that's not my point. My point is that I believe a minority of homosexuals (the ones who constantly exhibit gay mannerisms).

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What point are you trying to make anyway? I can't understand how someone would admit they don't know what they are talking about and then (in the same post) tell someone that their assumptions (which are not even assumptions) are "ignorant as all hell".

[Rooster71]

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Hi Rooster

First, I think the 'flaunting' argument is silly and beside the point. Because heterosexuals 'flaunt' their behavior all the time. I'll say again, gays are usually less sexually expressive in public than heteros because of the stigma. Obviously there are the extremely flamboyant exceptions.

But, again, I think these exceptions deceive you. There are also a lot of gays that do not exhibit them, but you'd never know they were gay, so you don't take them into consideration.

As far as genetics vs. learned behavior, both can play a role, just as they do with girls and boys, etc. We know that there are hormonal and physical differences between genders, which contribute to some behaviors, but we also know that many typically 'girly' behaviors are learned in childhood, based on how girls are treated. So society reinforces genetics. I see no reason to believe this doesn't happen to gays as well, although perhaps not from so early an age.

I have to leave for work so I can't give a more in depth response.

NT

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Thanks for the response. My question is basically one of genetics, which you began to address. The mannerisms are an interesting topic. One of the reasons this interests me is that I've know at least two people who showed this behavior at a very young age.

[Kenrick]

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My Question: Assuming that gay people are born that way, why do so many seem to exhibit the classic gay mannerisms (such as talking with a lisp) that allow people to immediately identify them as a homosexual? It is my belief that this behavior is what people are referring to when they say "why do they have to throw it in our face?" Is there anyone that can provide any shred of evidence that the stereotypical gay mannerisms are not a learned behavior?

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I believe people are born gay, (for the majority anyway, since any behavior can be learned), but obviously evidence goes both ways. I can't think of much evidence to support the mannerisms being born, however. Especially in current times, people have access to seeing (perhaps stereotypical) gay people on TV and wherever else and may consciously or unconsciously imitate the mannerisms. Heck, some people have thought I'm gay because I tend to be quiet and soft-spoken, (albeit opinionated.). /images/graemlins/smile.gif They didn't realize that I either had nothing to say at the time or I simply didn't like talking to them. Not being a "jerk" to women didn't help my cause, either.

The main reason I'm posting is in response to your thinking the mannerisms are what people think of as "gay people throwing it in their face." I don't think that's correct. It's more about the gay pride parade type thing or the trying to become a "minority" to gain extra union benefits or whatever. That sort of thing.

I know some people who live in the south who surprise me with how anti-gay they are, but overall I think the average person who is offended by the "throwing it in my face" doesn't really care if someone is gay or not. They only care that some gays are so vocal that they act like being gay is not only normal, but something special. Most heterosexuals don't think being heterosexual is anything special, so it can come across as being in your face when a gay person touts their homosexuality as something special.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

First of all, I 100% ascribe to the idea that homosexuality is more nature than nurture. I simply never "chose" to be attracted to females. The hormones kicked in, and that's where my interest was. I simply assume that for gay people, the same thing is true.

As for the mannerism thing, I thing that's a situation of melding with the prevalent norms of their culture. Yes, there are many gay people that live quiet, unassuming lives and just behave like everyone else. On the other hand, like in any subset of the population, there are more demonstrative people, some of whom are angry that they feel culturally compelled to hide their basic nature (a nature, I might add, that is not inimical to a civil society). Thus they act out, wanting to force the issue of acceptance.

All pretty normal human behavior, if you ask me.

[nothumb]

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It's more about the gay pride parade type thing or the trying to become a "minority" to gain extra union benefits or whatever. That sort of thing.


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When has this ever happened? I've never heard anything like this.

NT

[Kenrick]

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When has this ever happened? I've never heard anything like this.


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It was a topic in the thread that I assume prompted this thread.

[natedogg]

This will explain it for you.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006000679X/qid%3D1101706871/sr%3D8-1/ref%3Dpd%5Fcsp%5F1/

natedogg

[nothumb]

I've been reading these threads and never saw anything about gays getting extra benefits in unions. I did not know any 'minority' could get extra union benefits.

NT

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

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I know some people who live in the south who surprise me with how anti-gay they are, but overall I think the average person who is offended by the "throwing it in my face" doesn't really care if someone is gay or not. They only care that some gays are so vocal that they act like being gay is not only normal, but something special. Most heterosexuals don't think being heterosexual is anything special, so it can come across as being in your face when a gay person touts their homosexuality as something special.

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I just wanted to repeat this part. Well said and I believe quite accurate.