KK hand, raise flop or wait until turn

[jdl22]

A hand from 2/4 on Pacific. Table is loose. UTG seems loose and aggressive. He's been raising what seems like too much but I couldn't really tell due to what was shown down. Other players just seemed like the usual LAPs.

Preflop:
UTG raises, ep calls 2, mp calls 2, I raise, button calls 3 cold, blinds fold, utg calls, ep calls, mp folds

4 to flop for 15 sb

flop: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
utg bets, ep calls, I call, button calls

4 to turn for 9.5 bb

turn: (9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
utg bets, ep calls, I raise, button calls 2, utg 3 bets, ep folds, I call, button calls

3 to river for 19 bb

river: (9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG bets, I call, button calls

showdown: 3 players, 22 bb pot

So I don't think I played the hand well but here is my reasoning. On the flop I decided to call thinking I could get more money in by waiting until the turn. I didn't want to drop the ep and button by forcing them to call cold probably twice on the flop. I was hoping that with a larger pot they would do this when the betting doubled. His turn three bet convinced me that he had something and I could have been behind, but with the pot that size there is no way I was folding an overpair. On the river I went for the overcall.

[Ajax410]

I think I raise the flop, cap the turn, and raise the river...and call a 3-bet.

Alex

[ncboiler]

Raise the turn. This can easily be slow played into a loser. A wise man once told me slow playing sucks.

[KJT]

I would raise the flop with just an overpair. Too many cards to hurt you.

[jdl22]

Thanks for the comments. I think my play was way too weak tight on this hand. Later I learned that UTG was actually a maniac. On one hand he capped it heads up on the flop with nothing but a flush draw on the flop when I had a set. This hand also gave me a clue. He had TT and MHIG. Although I didn't realise at the time how laggy he was I still should have raised the flop.

[JDErickson]

Flop is too coordinated for me. Raise the flop. Don't make it cheap for some bozo to hit a crap straight on you.

[pointcount]

You must protect your hand on the flop... by calling it through you're giving anyone drawing to an inside the correct odds to call.

[SlantNGo]

I would actually wait till the turn to raise this. A flop raise still gives button 9.5 to 1 to call, which isn't very comforting. I don't think there's any way you can protect your hand on the flop so wait till the turn to raise a blank. However, since the board is very coordinated, you may hit a bad card on the turn, i.e. a T or 8, or even an ace; in that case, I would call down. I don't see how a flop raise folds a T or 8 in this situation, so I would definitely wait till the turn to raise.

[pointcount]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how a flop raise folds a T or 8 in this situation, so I would definitely wait till the turn to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't need to fold them. Protection by definition is either forcing a fold, or giving player incorrect odds to call. 1:9 isn't enough to call an inside straight draw.

Obviously raising when you have greater pot equity on the turn is good, but in a recent discussion in another thread which I bought up about this (overpair and raising on the flop) I think the general concensus was the only time you wait till the turn is when you simply CANNOT protect your hand. In this situation I think you can, at least from the last player to act.

[SlantNGo]

In the hand you posted, there were 5 to the flop, and you could force 2 players to call 2 cold. In that situation, I would raise. Here, there's only one player left to act. You can force Button to call two cold but the bettor and caller only need to call 1 more bet. This is enough in my opinion to wait till the turn to raise, although I am not quite sure that my reasoning is correct. Anyone else want to chip in?