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Zeno
11-26-2004, 04:40 PM
In the owners manual for the 10/22 Ruger rife I recently purchased there are required State warnings that must, by law, be included. The following is the warning from the Massachusetts Attorney General. For a 'warning' it includes much frothy information and a puritanical preachy tone that would put the prophet Jeremiah to shame. First-rate stuff full of half-truths, third-rate lies, misleading statements, irrational hooey, guilt flinging, and general idiocy just like the criminals that inhabit the Massachusetts State Legislature. See below:


“WARNING FROM THE MASSACHUSETTS ATTONEY GENERAL: This handgun is not equipped with a device that fully blocks use by unauthorized users. More than 200,000 firearms like this one are stolen from their owners every year in the United States. In addition, there are more than a thousand suicides each year by younger children and teenagers who get access to firearms. Hundreds more die from accidental discharge. It is likely that many more children sustain serious wounds, or inflict such wounds accidentally on others. In order to limit the chance of such misuse, it is imperative that you keep this weapon in a secure place and take other steps necessary to limit the possibility of theft or accident. Failure to take reasonable preventive steps may result in innocent lives being lost, and in some circumstances may result in your liability for these deaths.”

“IT IS UNLAWFUL TO STORE OR KEEP A FIREARM, RIFLE, SHOTGUN OR MACHINE GUN IN ANY PLACE UNLESS THAT WEAPON IS EQUIPPED WITH A TAMPER-RESISTANT SAFETY DEVICE OR IS STORED OR KEPT IN A SECURELY LOCKED CONTAINER.”


Contrast the above warning to that from the State of New Jersey:

“IT IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE TO LEAVE A LOADED FIREARM WITHIN EASY ACCESS OF A MINOR”.

************************************************** **********************

I have no need for warnings and find the continual banal blather of posted and required warnings not just a general nuisance but also a sign that all intelligent and civil behavior that comes natural to any civilized human being is under assault by a pack of demagogic morons that wish to hound and peck me to death with unwarranted scare tactics and puerile lunacy under the guise of Do-Gooding nonsense. Such warnings are inimical to any freethinking individual.

FU*K the State of Massachusetts and just about everyone else on this vile ball of rock vomit. To quote my friend Andy Fox, feh.

Le Misanthrope

P.S. While composing the above screed, I listened to a newly purchased CD;'The Best of Charlie Parker', really some great stuff.

Ray Zee
11-27-2004, 05:04 AM
i have some people on the way to remove all weapons from your possesion. you can get hdpm to defend you.

Rooster71
11-27-2004, 05:43 AM
This is my favorite part:
[ QUOTE ]
This handgun is not equipped with a device that fully blocks use by unauthorized users.

[/ QUOTE ]
What firearm that has ever been "equipped with a device that fully blocks use by unauthorized users."? The only way to fully block unauthorized users would be to equip it with some sort of chip and have another chip implanted into the owner. When the handgun chip recognizes that the user is the authorized owner, then (and only then) will the handgun be operable.

OK, next we need a way to disable the firearm when its intoxicated owner tries to use it. When that is done, it would be nice to have a firearm that assesses the target for you, this is necessary to avoid accidental discharge. After that, we can work on putting together a handgun that has some sort of giant shield that prevents injuries from stray bullets and richochet.

John Cole
11-27-2004, 12:10 PM
First, a remote starter. Now, taking Zeno's weapons. Ray, move to Massachusetts; you're getting soft.

Ray Zee
11-27-2004, 12:28 PM
sorry john i cant afford the taxes back there.

John Cole
11-27-2004, 03:58 PM
Ray,

You pay taxes? And I thought you were a Libertarian!

benfranklin
11-27-2004, 04:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]

What firearm that has ever been "equipped with a device that fully blocks use by unauthorized users."?

[/ QUOTE ]

Essentially, such a system is already functional. The only difference is that the chip is in a ring on the shooter's firing hand. The gun cannot be fired unless the ring is next to the gun. I don't think it is in general production yet, just beta testing.

Blarg
11-27-2004, 04:57 PM
Actually, very few people aren't careless, and a very high percentage of them are stupid to boot. I don't think the warnings are harmful in the least, so there's nothing all that negative about them. If they do make a new owner think twice about being stupid with his guns, fine.

Lots of people DO leave their guns unlocked and loaded within easy access of children. Since that could wind up in both the loss of life AND the loss of liberty of the gun owner according to laws that have been drawn up in the last few decades, warning people that both death and a thorough screwing by the courts are possibilities is doing them a favor. I believe there are probably plenty of people who do not know their liability for what other people do. That is, if some kid burgles your house and winds up shooting someone, YOU could be responsible even though you have no control over being burglarized. Face it, the courts love to throw the book at people and make examples of them for the community. Nobody wants to be the fall guy for some unctuous grandstanding prick's display of community-mindedness and concern "for the children."

I'm a gun owner myself and have always enjoyed them and valued them, but frankly I'm sure I'm much more responsible with them than most people, in the same way I've always owned a fist and even became decent at using it, but unlike a great many other people, I'm extremely careful with it and responsible about it. With rights come responsibilities, as they say. A gun is a valuable tool and a fun item for sporting purposes, too, but a scary thing in the hands of a fool or a child.

Since it's the government that's going to prosecute you, there's nothing wrong with them giving you fair warning. Beats the alternative of the Ah HA! Gotcha! way of visiting law upon others.

benfranklin
11-27-2004, 05:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]

“IT IS UNLAWFUL TO STORE OR KEEP A FIREARM, RIFLE, SHOTGUN OR MACHINE GUN IN ANY PLACE UNLESS THAT WEAPON IS EQUIPPED WITH A TAMPER-RESISTANT SAFETY DEVICE OR IS STORED OR KEPT IN A SECURELY LOCKED CONTAINER.”

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that the legislative intent there is that safe storage of guns consists of placing them in 55 gallon drums which are then filled with concrete and buried at sea. They were just too politically correct to come right out and say it.

[ QUOTE ]
I have no need for warnings and find the continual banal blather of posted and required warnings not just a general nuisance but also a sign that all intelligent and civil behavior that comes natural to any civilized human being is under assault by a pack of demagogic morons that wish to hound and peck me to death with unwarranted scare tactics and puerile lunacy under the guise of Do-Gooding nonsense. Such warnings are inimical to any freethinking individual.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts operates under the assumption that all of its citizens, with the exception of its elite and enlightened elected officials, are in need of assisted living in the conduct of their day-to-day activities. Essentially, the government operates under the theory that its citizens are too stupid to come in out of the rain. Based on who they elect to office, that theory has a lot going for it. This is what we could be looking forward to on the national level if JFK II had won a few more votes.


"An armed society is a polite society." -- Robert Heinlein

John Cole
11-27-2004, 05:07 PM
Mitt Romney is the governor. I don't know if this proves your point or not.

Zeno
11-27-2004, 05:20 PM
Some good points.

However, the goons from Massachusetts use the 'warning' for more than just a warning, this is obvious from the text, they had to sermonize (there is a lot more that I could say about this attitude but I will leave that to others). The warning by the State of New Jersey is simple, straight forward, and fulfills the need of the law, in my opinion, and does not contain all the extra blather and propagandist hooey that the State of Massachusetts felt compelled to waste paper on.

And further more, in my opinion, there are not enough suicides in the United States. We need more suicides, not less. You forget I’m a misanthrope.

So just for emphasis, I restate: FU*K the State of Massachusetts and the Criminal Goons that infest their State Legislature.

All in good fun mind you.

Le Misanthrope

PS. Thanks Ben, great post. I'm off to shoot my new .22 Ruger Rifle. This PS also serves as a notice of my activities incase the State of Massachusettes requireds it by law or by some other obscene regulation.

Kurn, son of Mogh
11-27-2004, 05:47 PM
Now, now, John. We libertarians may not like taxes, but above all we believe in the rule of law. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Kurn, son of Mogh
11-27-2004, 05:50 PM
I don't know what's more bizarre, the fact that Massachusetts has had a Republican governor for better than a decade or that the State's Democrats don't consider the post of Governor important enough to not run a total idiot. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Blarg
11-27-2004, 06:46 PM
Yeah it is sermonizing. Suicide is the leading cause of death for teenagers, though. I don't believe that we should all have to live by laws constructed so even fools, the mentally disturbed, and children will be perfectly safe, myself, because that lowers us all to the status of fools, mentally unstable, and children.

But I do think a bit of crap is appropriate for gun owners to go through. I can't tell you how many times I've been to shooting ranges where people are NOT keeping their guns pointed downrange, but are waving them all over the place, sometimes even in sight of signs saying not to do so and with the range owners and employees looking on. Hunters wind up shooting each other and homeowners every year. Frankly, I think the average gun owner is an a__hole, just like like everyone else, except with greater consequence. It reminds me of everyone being able to have a driver's license, despite the fact that so many people are oblivious, aggressively stupid, and careless and are put in control of an item that can easily kill many people and do it quickly. I wish I could pick and choose who gets cars and guns, but I can't; so I do wish people would have less confidence in being "good drivers" and "safe gun owners" than they seem to, and really think about what they're doing a little more.

Most people aren't stupid, although they may be careless, but soooo many are. A little lecture by the government, whatever -- anything that gets them to slow down and actually THINK...can't hurt. The rest of us can just read it through quickly without moving our lips and get on with being as careful as we already intended to be in the first place.

John Cole
11-27-2004, 09:00 PM
Rhode Island, too, seems to follow this principle.

Zeno
11-27-2004, 10:38 PM
Blarg,

That's two intelligent and enjoyable responses. I have also seen and meet some real dummies with guns. Not a pretty sight I admit, but one we all must live with least all our freedoms whither and die or are taken away by the likes of John Cole and Andy Fox - who, for some odd reason, are being unreasonably and obnoxiously civil. They are irksome creatures and one must keep an eye out for their cloaked and gentlemanly conduct.

On the other hand, this is very old ground trod over in the past ad nauseam and we all tend to agree that we disagree and that Ray Zee, HDPM, Ben, Zeno, et. al. are 100% correct about all the gun issues, so they graciously let my posts stand as beacons of freedom and hope for all. Very wise of those two. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-Zeno

Rick Nebiolo
11-28-2004, 03:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
P.S. While composing the above screed, I listened to a newly purchased CD;'The Best of Charlie Parker', really some great stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of Charlie Parker CD's with similar titles. Was it this (http://tinyurl.com/56vok) one? That was my most recent CD purchase along with a copy of Emmylou Harris' "Wrecking Ball" (http://tinyurl.com/67n2g), both in a bargain bin for under ten bucks.

~ Rick

PS Yeah, Massachusetts and Rhode Island state laws suck, but things aren't much better here in California.

ilya
11-28-2004, 03:19 PM
Please let's not contaminate the OOT forum with politically-charged posts.

Kurn, son of Mogh
11-28-2004, 03:31 PM
But RI has a Republican Senator who's more liberal than many Democrats.

benfranklin
11-28-2004, 03:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]


PS Yeah, Massachusetts and Rhode Island state laws suck, but things aren't much better here in California.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it that "liberals" are anything but liberal in granting personal freedon to their fellow citizens? Minnesotans are still considered to be too irresponsible to be trusted to buy beer on Sunday, or in grocery stores.

My conclusion is that liberals, particularly those in government, are elitists who profess their love and respect for "people" in the abstract, but distrust actual "persons" in the real world. People are great, individuals are rude, ignorant, and untrustworthy.

nothumb
11-28-2004, 05:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
People are great, individuals are rude, ignorant, and untrustworthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Might I point out that this, minus the 'people are great' part, is a good summation of the views of many prominent conservatives on this forum as well. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I have a great loathing for the Puritanical Peoples' Republic of MA as well, and particularly for its state government and the system of bribery and gerrymandering that some people seem to mistake for an attempt at socialism. Until recently I could not buy beer on Sundays here either, and the only reason I can now is because I live within 10 miles of the NY border and local businesses sued the state, saying it was an unfair disadvantage that they were only open 6 days.

Oh, and here in super-elite South Berkshire county, you can't even sell beer or wine in a gas station or grocery store, for fear of miscreants I suppose.

You also can't get Geico, Progressive, or a variety of other cheap insurance providers here, because the state legislature 'protects' consumers by saddling them with a non-competitive, overpriced insurance market.

However, I don't have a problem with the statement included in the gun. To a few people, like Zeno, it is an affront to the dignity and responsibility of a decent, well-trained gun owner. To the rest, it is a wall of Legos to stop the tsunami that is the ignorance and irresponsibility of the average citizen.

NT

Blarg
11-28-2004, 05:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why is it that "liberals" are anything but liberal in granting personal freedon to their fellow citizens? Minnesotans are still considered to be too irresponsible to be trusted to buy beer on Sunday, or in grocery stores.

[/ QUOTE ]

Labels can be addicting. Almost impossibly addicting and almost impossible to fight off. They have a natural appeal even when they're somewhat incorrect, and are fantastically compelling when they're most wrong.

I'm liberal, and I'm a gun-owner and big 2nd amendment advocate. I choose to be an independent minded person, not cave in to whatever label and group-think is popular with either conservatives or liberals. I also was for welfare reform. I believe in both personal freedom and personal responsibility.

[ QUOTE ]
Minnesotans are still considered to be too irresponsible to be trusted to buy beer on Sunday, or in grocery stores.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a matter of liberalism. Germany still closes many businesses all Sunday. I don't think that nation has been called liberal for over a century. That's religious/morality based.

And that's something virtually everyone of every political stripe loves to get in on.

Liberals may have a distrust for how people with perfect freedom are going to handle themselves, and so want to make rules to ensure a supposedly "best outcome," but conservatives are traditionally absolutely no better, often worse.

It's various types of conservatives who wanted to burn rock and roll records, who both wanted to make birth control pills illegal and still actively campaign against any new form of birth control, yet at the same time want to tell a woman whether or not she can have an abortion, and, if so, exactly when and how. And want to force her doctor to talk about it with her only in certain ways. That's restriction upon restriction of private behavior even piled contradictorily upon themselves.

It's conservatives who want to withhold funding for local charities and international predicated solely upon whether they provide condoms or other forms of birth control.

It's conservatives who want to put one religion's Ten Commandments in publicly funded buildings that people of all religions must use and expect protection and representation in, and conservatives who generally work one particular religion into government, not liberals.

It's conservatives who want to sanitize the public airwaves, censor novels and plays and documentaries, create blacklists that ruin the lives of people and whole families, etc.

Neither conservatives nor liberals really trust people, and I don't think either of them even value or like people. Most people don't like anyone who isn't like them, and the freedom most people think is fair to grant others is the freedom not to differ -- to live differently, feel differently, and openly express difference -- but to conform; that is, to be exactly like them.

Lack of love for the rights and privacy of others is a big issue not just with liberals or conservatives, but with the human animal, period.

It's just sloppy thinking, and wishful thinking, to ascribe all the negatives and things we don't like to one real or imagined group, and keep all the virtues in our minds as things that apply only or to any significant degree to us.

I think anyone who rigorously follows a party line or its group-think, usually established almost at random by whatever band of dickheads is popular and on top at the time, usually has a mind of a small and narrow scale, and is likely ignorant of both history and its ramifications.

What passes for thought is probably rarely more than the consoling regurgitation of whatever influences we've grown up with and had stuffed down our throats by our time and geography, personal weaknesses, and family and friends. And the notion that those influences are benign, balanced, or very thoroughly thought through is a very comforting, but very foolish one.

benfranklin
11-28-2004, 06:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]


Might I point out that this, minus the 'people are great' part, is a good summation of the views of many prominent conservatives on this forum as well. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Any of my ranting against the left is not to be taken as an endorsement of the right. Both sides have their fair share of well-meaning idiots. Democrat guru James Carville wrote a book called "We're Right, They're Wrong". That attitude explains the major problem with both extremes of the political spectrum. The political right has traditionally had more respect for self-determination than the left, although that seems to be weakening as the Republican Party moves to the center, which has been vacated by the Dems. The left continues to try to legislate outcomes rather than a environment for self-determination. To "protect" consumers, Minnesota has laws imposing retail price limits on such things as gas and cigarettes. These laws do not set upper limits, they set minimum prices. If I remember the numbers correctly, gas stations are required to sell gas for at least $0.08 per gallon above their wholesale cost. In addition to restraining competition, these laws impose additional costs of compliance by merchants and enforcement by government.


[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't have a problem with the statement included in the gun. To a few people, like Zeno, it is an affront to the dignity and responsibility of a decent, well-trained gun owner. To the rest, it is a wall of Legos to stop the tsunami that is the ignorance and irresponsibility of the average citizen.

[/ QUOTE ]

The warning, like the recently expired Assault Weapons Ban, is there to give lawmakers a warm and fuzzy feeling of accomplishment. It assumes that the gun owner will read and understand it, and act accordingly. Compare the two warnings in Zeno's original post. Which is more likely to be read? Which is more likely to be dismissed and ignored as pointless and incomprehensible legalese?

Such warnings are an affront to anyone who bothers to read and understand them, both because of their content and because of the insult of the underlying assumption about the reader's intelligence and competence.

Intelligence aside, I have a lot more confidence in the responsibility of the average gun owner than I do in the responsibility of the average driver.

nothumb
11-28-2004, 06:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Any of my ranting against the left is not to be taken as an endorsement of the right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor was it taken as such. Just struck me as funny. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
political right has traditionally had more respect for self-determination than the left, although that seems to be weakening as the Republican Party moves to the center, which has been vacated by the Dems.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have problems with this. Both parties are trying to move into the 'center' and don't really know what it is. GOP is disappointing small government types with major spending, but moving farther right on social and cultural issues, and foreign policy more or less. Dems took over some of the foreign policy left but IMHO represent more of a 'center' on some social issues that Bush has pushed for far-right action on.

I think, as I've said in some earlier posts, that the left-right axis is losing a lot of its usefulness given that we have a very radical administration right now and the geopolitical landscape is shifting so much.

[ QUOTE ]
Intelligence aside, I have a lot more confidence in the responsibility of the average gun owner than I do in the responsibility of the average driver.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, first, this is hard to quantify, and second, one is a much greater responsibility than the other.

NT

Zeno
11-28-2004, 11:22 PM
You nailed it Rick. That is the Charlie Parker CD I just purchased. About $11 including tax. Quite a bargin.

I don't have any Emmylou, followered her music from the 70's on but just don't have any CD's of her. My dad used to play an old cassette of Emmylou in his shop while wood carving or tying flies. The tape finally died a slow and tortuous death. Thank God (the music was great the tape was just too worn out)

-Zeno

Zeno
11-29-2004, 12:31 AM
Great discussion. Just to clarify some, I was not really that distraught with the warning itself as with the very obvious and underlying theme to the whole text. Which I think is very obvious. All that was required by law, probably, could be stated and was stated in the warning from the State of New Jersey and most that entered this discussion understand that I think. Of course it does not 'hurt me' any to read the warning - but is that really the main point! I think not. It’s the embedded message and tone in how the Massachusetts Attorney General’s office chose to present the warning and the underlying political and social attitude it reveals. It beguiles their real intent, in my opinion, which is to imply that gun owners are morons, or at least, much less intelligent than the authors of the warnings. Which leads to other things that have already been hashed over by others and etc.......

As to the whole political structure and the whys and how’s etc. of warnings and the Conservative/Liberal label and agenda, I have no set of views that I want to expound on in this thread least it turn into a mumbo-jumbo of political jabberwocky, which is best left to the Donkeys and Elephants of the politics forum.

Thanks to all that responded and all who did not - Andy’s silence alone spoke volumes. John Cole wisely constrained his comments to limp satire and cold witticisms. Rick chimed in with music talk. So God is in His heaven, Bush is on his Throne, and all is right in this best of all possible worlds.

-Zeno, Neo-con Fascist.

Zeno
11-29-2004, 12:43 AM
This is the correct forum for all related gun talk or discussion. The thread evolved into something more political than anticipated. If you find it distasteful, you are free to ignore it.

-Zeno

MycroftX
11-29-2004, 01:04 AM
I'm very proud to live in RI/Mass. And I have passed the Hunter's safety course with flying colors.

Rick Nebiolo
11-29-2004, 03:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have any Emmylou, followered her music from the 70's on but just don't have any CD's of her. My dad used to play an old cassette of Emmylou in his shop while wood carving or tying flies. The tape finally died a slow and tortuous death. Thank God (the music was great the tape was just too worn out)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't go with a compilation i.e. greatest hits CD, you can't go wrong with "Wrecking Ball". The title track alone is worth the price of the CD. Check out the clips from my link to the CD on Amazon.

~ Rick

jakethebake
11-29-2004, 09:31 AM
Sounds about right...It's Massachusetts!