Need Advice for the 1,2 No limit Hold'em at the Borgata

[Pennmaster]

I am a beginning player who has been playing and studying Hold'm for a year and a half. I have read and studied Ken Warren's Texas Hold'm, the Theory of Poker, Texas Hold'em for Advanced players, and Super System (all of these multiple times). My playing experience has been limited to a weekly home game, many hours online at Party Poker (on the NL 25 tables), and two trips to Atlantic City. My bank roll has steadily increased in the last six months, but after a 8 hour session at the Borgata yesterday I left the table frustrated and embarassed. Though I was up $250.00 for the session, I feel that I played "tight passive" and everyone at the table wanted to leave or for me to leave. I was on a really bad, bad run of cards, but I still feel that there could have been something that I could have done to avoid the reputation that I was establishing. Even one dealer said, "this is the tightest table I ever seen". Examples of my play are as follows. Once I had K,10 off on in early postion and I only called (this was the best hand I had seen in an hour). A guy in late postion raised the pot to 25.00 and I folded. Because I had not been in a hand in forever, I could tell he was frustrated with me. He ended up showing A,K suited, so I thought I was justified in folding, but maybe I should have called (or even raised) just to help my image. Especially with this particular guy. Earlier in the session I had one of my best hands of the day, A,Q off in late postion. I raised to ten (which most of these guys thought was weak) and this same guy called from an earlier postion. A queen and two blanks came on the flop and this guy bet 30.00. I raised to 60 and he moved me all in. I thought for a bit about this raise and then called. He had K,Q and I took the pot down taking 200 from him. But then I went cold and played nothing for almost another hour. He was not happy and neither were his buddies. Another example was late in my session where once again I was in early position and found myself holding K,10 suited. I actually raised to 10 and a guy on the button reraised making it 35.00 to go. I folded and he turned over A,A. Then he jumped up and said, "Guys, I just can't play at this table, it's too tight, and I have to go where I can make some money". He was looking straight at me because, once again, this was the first hand I had entered for a long time and then folded after raising. Needless to say, most of these guys thought I was horrible (maybe they're right), and left the table. I finally left the table feeling bad about my play, and then deciding that, after reading about tight passive players in "The Psychology of Poker", that maybe they were right and I was just being a rock. One last example. I had 6,7 suited on the big blind and the same guy I had beat earlier raised to 15. The guy on the button called and I folded. Again the guy looked at me light, you suck. I ended up folding the winning hand, but I thought I was correct. So, any good advice for me? Am I at the wrong table at the wrong place? Do I just need more experience and a little better luck, or was I being the "rock" that was killing the table.

PS Last time I was in AC I was at the Tropicana and left up 300.00, but played what I felt was a much more tight aggressive style. What happened to me? Thanks for reading and any advice you might have.

[Seether]

Are you there to make friends or win money? Obvisously from what it sounded like, you werent getting the greatest of cards, it happens to all of us. Who care what randome gambler01 thinks about your playing style.

[Pennmaster]

I hear what you're saying, but because I'm so new to the game and don't really know my style, I am very conscious of how others percieve me because I (maybe wrongfully) use their judgement as a barometer of where I'm at. In other words, I guess I felt like many players where saying "you're a tight passive player and so we're not playing here", and I thought, "Maybe they're right, and maybe I really need to re-evaluate my game". Tight passive is not the type of player I want to be, so it was hard to think that so many players were marking me as that. Part of the problem is that I really don't know the exact defining line between tight passive/weak and tight aggressive. Also, I guess it was just like one of those times in highschool when you're playing your sport and even though you earn a victory, you question you're commpetence. Anyway, THANKS FOR THE REPLY AND COMMENTS. ANY FEEDBACK IS GOOD AS I TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BECOME A WINNING PLAYER.

[adamstewart]

Sounds like you had a great session, especially considering you didn't get good cards.

From the sounds of it: "You took their money. They couldn't take your's." I can't see anything wrong with that!

Unfortunately, I can't comment on "no limit" games because I have no idea how to play compared to limit. (This, however, is an area of knowledge I hope to expand in the very near future /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

Adam

[ML4L]

Hey Penn,

In no particular order...

1) You can't let opponents throw you off your game so easily. Play the most profitable way that you can. If that means playing tight, then play tight. If they think you're a rock, steal pots and semi-bluff more until they adjust. If you don't have the cards to do that, just wait until you do. Don't play poor hands just because you haven't played a hand in a while and you feel some need to justify your presence at the table.

2) If someone starts giving a hard time for playing tight, play along. Say corny stuff like, "I got aces a couple hands ago, but folded them because they weren't suited." When you finally play a hand, make a comment about it. Embrace the tight image, and then rob them blind when
they buy into it. Take advantage of your table image, whether it be loose or tight and regardless of how you got it (i.e. if you get a loose image because of hot cards, don't explain to them that it's the cards. Make them think you're a maniac).

3)
[ QUOTE ]
Once I had K,10 off on in early postion and I only called

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling with that hand in EP is an example of loose/poor play. The hand should be folded. Calling a huge raise after having already limped would be terrible poker, as evidenced by your opponent's holding.

4)
[ QUOTE ]
Earlier in the session I had one of my best hands of the day, A,Q off in late postion. I raised to ten (which most of these guys thought was weak) and this same guy called from an earlier postion. A queen and two blanks came on the flop and this guy bet 30.00. I raised to 60 and he moved me all in. I thought for a bit about this raise and then called. He had K,Q and I took the pot down taking 200 from him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising to five times the big blind is not "weak." A real rock probably wouldn't raise the hand at all. A real rock would also fold to the all-in. You played the hand well.

5)
[ QUOTE ]
He was not happy and neither were his buddies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be happy either if I was an [censored] and sucked at poker.

6)
[ QUOTE ]
Another example was late in my session where once again I was in early position and found myself holding K,10 suited. I actually raised to 10

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a loose play and generally should not be made in the game in question, especially by someone with limited experience who does not play expertly after the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
and a guy on the button reraised making it 35.00 to go. I folded and he turned over A,A.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you feel bad for folding and not handing money to this dude why...?

7)
[ QUOTE ]
Needless to say, most of these guys thought I was horrible (maybe they're right), and left the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wouldn't surprise me if you were the best player at the table, given the idiotic behavior of your opponents.

8)
[ QUOTE ]
I had 6,7 suited on the big blind and the same guy I had beat earlier raised to 15. The guy on the button called and I folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing wrong with folding here out of position, particularly if you don't play expertly postflop.

9)
[ QUOTE ]
was I being the "rock" that was killing the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why the responsiblity of giving action fell solely on you. Weren't there 9 other guys at the table?

10)
[ QUOTE ]
Last time I was in AC I was at the Tropicana and left up 300.00, but played what I felt was a much more tight aggressive style. What happened to me?

[/ QUOTE ]

You got cold-decked. There is no quota of hands that you must play in a given session. If the cards are hot, you play more hands. If the cards are cold, you sit there and fold. Simple as that.


So, to summarize. Don't care so much what they think. And, whatever they think of you, accurate or false, take advantage of it. Play the game that will make you money. If you're playing in a home game or something, it's a little different, because if you seem like a rock, they might not let you play anymore. But, in a casino, DON'T CARE!

Hope this helps.

ML4L

[Pennmaster]

ML4L,

Thanks for the time invested in the reply, and the advise is enormous help. All my life while playing sports I had coaches that were able to evaluate my game and help me improve. Poker is very different in that I have none, and it is very difficult to self evaluate. I'm not sure why it got to me so much yesterday, but I definitely was not able to take advantage of what, as you put it, was a great opportunity. I let these guys put me on semi tilt to the point that I was more worried about what everyone was thinking of me than I was about the cards they were holding (it was crazy though, guys were moving to the other end of the table when a seat opened and then chatting with the loose aggressive players,laughing, and looking at me, it was definitely weird). I will be printing your post and hanging it on my office wall for future reference.

Sincerely,

Pennmaster

[Kevroc]

Hey, just wanted to make a comment or two. You seem to be using your opponents reactions to judge your own play. Use your chip count to judge that! Sometimes in NL we fold alot of hands that are marginal because we arent comfortable enough after the flop to play them confidently and to me confidence is a key to winning play. I play very tight also so I can relate. When I am not involved in a hand I observe the hand intensely, you can learn so much by watching the hands play out and seeing what type of hands your opponents table and how they have played them.

Nevermind if they think you are weak or "killing" their action. Who cares? The NL has become so popular let them go find another game, the seat will be filled by another player. As for the dealer's comments... he wants bigger pots so he gets bigger tokes. Limit poker allows more mistakes because you cant lose your whole stack at once, NL it is better to fold now and live to play another day.

In closing, don't judge your play by your opponents silly comments. Continue to read this excellent forum and experience in the cardroom is the best way to improve your game. Also, most of those NL borgata guys arent reading any books on psychology, so don't get too wrapped up in that. That game is comprised of poker bed-wetters whose experience is comprised of watching WPT and playing Thursday nights versus Uncle Vinny and Jimmy bag o' nickels.

Good Luck!

[jtr]

Hey, Pennmaster.

Interesting post. I don't have anything profound to add to the excellent advice you've already received, but I wanted to add one more voice to the chorus to help you realize that you did nothing wrong.

These guys are complaining about your play because they're idiots and want action. In a more lively game your tight play would have been invisible; I think you were just unlucky to get noticed and picked on so much. Whatever the reasons, don't let them get to you. And for god's sake man, don't be depressed about walking out with $200!

And stop playing KTo in early position (or anywhere for that matter).

Best of luck.

[Pennmaster]

Kevroc,

Thanks for the reply, I am learning from you guys at an exponential rate! I wish I would have visited the site and forum when I first read one of the TwoPlusTwo books a year ago.

After reading you're reply, as well as the others, I feel confident that I can return to that game and, given a similar situation, play with confidence while looking straight at those guys and saying, "Just keep it coming". Then, at the end of my session, exalt in walking away with a payday, especially when the cards aren't being kind.

I am certainly glad to have guys like yourself replying instead of some of the guys who post who rip beginners, with real questions, for being just that, beginners.

Sincerely,
Pennmaster

[Pennmaster]

jtr,

Thanks for the post, as I value all comments.

I don't think it was the cash that I was dissapointed with as much as it was the idea that my style had become so obvious and, possibly, bad for my game. After eight hours of play with less than a dozen pots won, I was beginning to think that "rock" fit me rather well, and that any two cards that had paint were good stuff. So much so that the K,10 off, that I know better than to play up front, started to look really good to me. Prior to that play, several times I had thrown K,J off away on the LB when someone in middle postion raised and got a caller in late position. I felt correct in those plays until I could feel my ears starting to burn (that's when I'm getting really mad) after looking at 6,3 9,4 10,5 J,4 over and over and over again. So, thanks for the reminder that those hands should be thrown, even when Mr. X maniac tries to stare me down for doing so.

Sincerely,
Pennmaster

[SA125]

I had to double check to blind amount a few times when you were saying what these guys were coming in with as first in. $25 from LP with $3 in the pot? The only one calling him is AA or maybe KK. Why else bother? Stupid.

ML covered everything better than I could. Just wanted to add another confirmation to overcome your self-doubt.

[Pennmaster]

Adam,

Thanks for the post. Entering this forum and reading comments like yours has been a great boost for me.

On the way home from AC, as I pondered my play, I was trying to convince myself that, though I was obviously in the minority, possibly I had played decent considering the circumstances. But, being clearly in the minority, I was feeling the heat of the prejudice against guys who were playing as I did. As others have said, these guys wanted action, and I just wasn't going to give it when I had no business being in the hand to begin with. Maybe that is just the nature of the game there, and so I will take the strength of the advice given here and actually enjoy myself next time I return (that is, if I suceed in winning again /images/graemlins/wink.gif).

Sincerely,
Pennmaster

[jtr]

Happy to help, Penn.

[ QUOTE ]
After eight hours of play with less than a dozen pots won, I was beginning to think that "rock" fit me rather well...

[/ QUOTE ]

8 hours x 30 hands/hr = 240 hands, that's a 5% win rate. That's about what I get in the Party $50 and $100 NL games, so if you're a rock then I am too.

[Pennmaster]

SA125,

Thanks for the comment. I will be watching and reading you guys closely. Real players with sound knowledge of the game is what I have been in search of. I have received more solid advice in the last 24 hours about real playing situations than I have in the time since I started playing.

Sincerely,
Pennmaster

[Pennmaster]

jtr,

Sound logic /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. Didn't think of it in that respect.

Actually, now that I think about it, I believe I have seen you in several games on Party (if your screen name includes jtr), but I really only play the 25 NL so maybe not.

Anyway, thanks again.

Pennmaster

[jtr]

Sadly, Penn, I am one of those cowardly people whose 2+2 name doesn't match their Party login. I think I've seen a JTR as well, but it's not me.

Best of luck to you, and I hope you continue to get good advice out of the forum.

[DBowling]

heh, i think you played fine. I would have definatly mucked KTo from any position, especially to a raise. The fact that he held AK just shows why you dont want to play it, you are dominated and may lose a good chunk of change if a K hits. If you are getting an image of being too tight, i like to play suited connectors more liberally. Rarely will you go broke with them, because you dont play them past the flop if it doesnt hit you just right. So maybe raise with them in a late position if no one else has raised or call a raise if the stacks are deep enough and youve got multiway action.
Youre not there to make friends, youre there to make money. A friendly table is a good table though. It sounds like you found one of the least friendly tables around. Id ask for a table change if i could, and hopefully land at a table where people are laughing and drinking.
Dont let this bad experience discourage you from live play.